Preservation or Utilisation? Antique Tools

[mseries]

There's a point, but probably a very subjective one, where you tip over into industrial archaeology. Having said that, Victorian pumping stations, steam locos, and the like are, in my view, much the better for being fully restored and used, even if the original purpose is no longer viable.

Quite, I was so pleased to learn this week that Flying Scotsman moved under it's owb steam again last week, real shame Mallard isn't mainline worthy any more. Stil great to look at but it's a 126mph machine, it needs to move

 

[Rhyolith]

......I think probably he was skilled like many of his generation because there was no option to buy. The money didn't exist. You fixed it, you kept every screw in tobacco tins, you looked after your gear because that was the way. I'm not sure people did woodwork as a hobby. You either did it for a trade and grafted your a*se off, you did it to make do because there was no option to call in a tradesman or you called in a tradesman and had them coming round the backdoor to get in.....

Indeed, I think something critical about old tools is that people relied on them for there livelihoods: If the tools failed you, that was game over. I think this is why older woodworking tools (and probably other trades too) are so much better than modern ones... because today most woodworkers are hobbyists (I assume) and for them it does not matter to the same degree if something does not do its job or breaks. Today the brilliance has moved almost entirely to large commercial and industrial machines rather than little hand tools, because in todays society its the failure of one of those that really matters. Just look as modern jet turbines (made in Britain still I think) if your not convinced.

There's a point, but probably a very subjective one, where you tip over into industrial archaeology. Having said that, Victorian pumping stations, steam locos, and the like are, in my view, much the better for being fully restored and used, even if the original purpose is no longer viable.

Quite, I was so pleased to learn this week that Flying Scotsman moved under it's owb steam again last week, real shame Mallard isn't mainline worthy any more. Stil great to look at but it's a 126mph machine, it needs to move

I love steam engines, would defiantly agree they should be puffing round the railways rather than in a museum Was great to see one that is (even if only on TV).

 

[Corneel]

I was thinking a bit about this and then reminded that I do have one tool for show. It's not even in the workshop, it's sitting on a cupboard in the house. This plow plane came with the wrong cutter. I found another one, but would need to do quite some surgery to the tool to make it work again. So I opted to leave it alone. The poor thing is very beautifull, but can't do its job anymore.

You can click on the image to look at it in more detail.

 

[Bm101]

Indeed, I think something critical about old tools is that people relied on them for there livelihoods: If the tools failed you, that was game over. I think this is why older woodworking tools (and probably other trades too) are so much better than modern ones... because today most woodworkers are hobbyists (I assume) and for them it does not matter to the same degree if something does not do its job or breaks. Today the brilliance has moved almost entirely to large commercial and industrial machines rather than little hand tools, because in todays society its the failure of one of those that really matters.

Not sure I agree with you there Fella. I think there's far more to it than that personally. Just my opinion. :wink:

 

[RogerP]

Indeed, I think something critical about old tools is that people relied on them for there livelihoods: If the tools failed you, that was game over. I think this is why older woodworking tools (and probably other trades too) are so much better than modern ones... because today most woodworkers are hobbyists (I assume) and for them it does not matter to the same degree if something does not do its job or breaks. Today the brilliance has moved almost entirely to large commercial and industrial machines rather than little hand tools, because in todays society its the failure of one of those that really matters.

Not sure I agree with you there Fella. I think there's far more to it than that personally. Just my opinion. :wink:

Neither do I. Agreed there's a lot of rubbish on the lower end of market and so there has always been, nothing new about that. I've seen plenty of pre-war (and earlier) rubbish tools. Most of the great old tools we hanker after now were in fact very expensive in their day and if you buy the top line expensive tools now they will also be very good.

 

[D_W]

Use. 100%. The only exception would be an item that is so rare that it's too expensive to use (which means that I'm letting collectors determine whether or not I'd use something).

 

[bugbear]

Agreed there's a lot of rubbish on the lower end of market and so there has always been, nothing new about that.

Yes - not all old tools were "the best".

If you look in the old catalogues, many tools came in 5 (or more) degrees of refinement, simply according to your ability to pay.

Some people simply couldn't afford (or didn't need) the high end ones.

Plough planes and marking/cutting gauges are good examples of this.

BugBear

 

[mseries]

I love steam engines, would defiantly agree they should be puffing round the railways rather than in a museum Was great to see one that is (even if only on TV).

Yes, I have seen Flying Scotsman in steam many many times in the past, nevertheless I do hope to get to the NRM or somewhere local this year to see it again. I had two great days out with my Dad in the last few years at Yseeing the 6 remaining Gresley A4s to celebrate the 75 years since Mallards record breaking journey.

 

[AndyT]

Use. 100%. The only exception would be an item that is so rare that it's too expensive to use (which means that I'm letting collectors determine whether or not I'd use something).

So if I gave you a lovely old template for cutting the ends of a particular size of sash moulding when making a sash window with internal glazing bars,

what would you do with it? Would you set about making a window using that particular profile?

Now I like old tools and I like using old tools. People who have followed my postings in the Projects section will know that I like to use my woodworking as a means of comparing different old tools so that I understand more about how they work and why they were made like they were.

But I've had this old template for five years or so, and, unsurprisingly, I have still not needed to make such a window! It was not expensive - a few quid for a boxful of similar items on eBay - and not especially rare. But it is a bit of evidence about how joiners used to work, worthy of preservation. I expect most of us have tools which we appreciate for their history more than we can actually use them.

In a similar vein, I've not yet needed to drill a hole with a brace and bit reaching round a corner, but I am the happy custodian of a suitable tool, proudly marked with the memorable name of Quimby S Backus, should I ever need to do so! :wink:

 

[D_W]

I'd be in the same boat as you - I'd have no need for it and wouldn't know what to do with it other than hope that I could find someone who wanted to use it. I wouldn't have a more profound thought for it unless I thought it was the last of its kind and there was no literature on it.

It's possible to preserve wood for a while, but impossible for it to last forever - especially beech.

It'll be interesting to see how long digital preservation lasts.

 

[Trafalgar]

It's my understanding that several professional golfers have been allowed to hit the last set of irons Ben Hogan used in serious competition. Word is that only Tiger Woods could really do anything with them -- they are extremely stiff and have very flat lies to help combat Hogan's tendency to hook the ball.

Don't be surprised if some tool set up has you perplexed, especially if they have provenance from a master's shop. Could be the set up only really worked for him or made sense for the way he wanted to work wood (or flight a golf ball as in Ben Hogan's case).

Perhaps food for thought before making any declarations, one way or the other, about an old tool you've run across.

 

[D_W]

It's my understanding that several professional golfers have been allowed to hit the last set of irons Ben Hogan used in serious competition. Word is that only Tiger Woods could really do anything with them -- they are extremely stiff and have very flat lies to help combat Hogan's tendency to hook the ball.

Don't be surprised if some tool set up has you perplexed, especially if they have provenance from a master's shop. Could be the set up only really worked for him or made sense for the way he wanted to work wood (or flight a golf ball as in Ben Hogan's case).

Perhaps food for thought before making any declarations, one way or the other, about an old tool you've run across.

I was a little surprised that anyone was allowed to hit those. Charles, I'm sure you've hit clubs like that before if you've ever gotten long irons out of an old bag that are on the heavier side. They probably have a smooth shot feel of a couple of dimples.

At any rate, I wouldn't have let anyone hit them - they have hogan's wear pattern on the center of the face, and it would seem of all of the things out there that could be hung up and left alone, hogans irons would be it.

I worked at a driving range in the 1990s that had clubs that had been lost at the local country club over a 40 - 50 year period or so - the long irons of the oldest makes were difficult to hit if you were looking for shots that feel good.

 

[Trafalgar]

True story.

I doubt if Hogan played any set until the grooves were gone in the sweet spot. They're *sort of* important. I'm sure there was some wear there though. One thing you can count on, the sweet spot is where the identifiable wear was. Hitting those clubs significantly off the sweet spot would have been a painful experience.

 

[D_W]

True story.

I doubt if Hogan played any set until the grooves were gone in the sweet spot. They're *sort of* important. I'm sure there was some wear there though. One thing you can count on, the sweet spot is where the identifiable wear was. Hitting those clubs significantly off the sweet spot would have been a painful experience.

Wear pattern is probably a bad way to describe it. What I recall is a dark spot on the lost 2 iron or 1 iron that he had that was recently recovered. About the size of a dime. If he liked a club, I'm sure he could have the grooves refreshed on a regular basis.

 

[Trafalgar]

Yep.

Corollary here is to be careful with assumptions about why a woodworking tool was set up a particular way.

You could be looking at the woodworking equivalent of a duffer's golf club or of Ben Hogan's.

 

[Rorschach]

Unless it's very rare and valuable then I use it.

 

[Vann]

I own a Chinese wine bowl... It is simple in design, but not of great beauty, nor, obviously do I use it, but I enjoy the fact that it is that old, and has survived more or less intact.

I think that logic could be applied to many of the tools we have, even if the age isn't in the same league.

There's a point, but probably a very subjective one, where you tip over into industrial archaeology. Having said that, Victorian pumping stations, steam locos, and the like are, in my view, much the better for being fully restored and used, even if the original purpose is no longer viable.
The question of aesthetics is another subjective, but any of the many marks of Spitfire, the Vulcan bomber, or the Concorde, are undeniably beautiful, even if efficiency, rather than beauty was the intention of the designers. Again, I would much rather see them up in the air, and hear their sounds, than see them as a static display.

Here I disagree. In my misspent youth I put in a lot of hours at a steam railway. There were a few discussions about steam locomotives behind glass, and whether they should be out running. In a similar vein, there's a spitfire fighter in the Auckland museum with very few hours on its airframe, and the argument was that it should be out flying.

My opinion is, if it's in good nick and preserved, it should be left preserved - for future generations. If it's in poor nick and you return it to good condition, you've earned the right to use it and risk losing it (to wear, damage or total loss).

The same argument can be applied to tools. I have far too many planes, drills, etc. of varying vintage (very few valuable ones unfortunately). If I have a nice original vintage tool, and newer ones that will do the same job, I put the older ones aside and use mid-aged ones (I try not to own anything too new - unless it's a quality tool like a Clifton plane).

In general, I think it's ok to use antique tools for their original purpose. Of course, my usage as an occasional dabbler in woodworking is only ever going to be very light usage. I don't think I will wear out any of the tools in my care.

(snip)

A consequence of this is that I will only do the minimum of restoration to put a tool back into the sort of condition it would be in if it was still in use by a competent tradesman. So gross dirt and rust come off but all signs of honest ageing are retained. In general, that is - there will be odd exceptions.

I like Andy's approach, and although I like to completely strip and repaint an old tool, I am now learning to appreciate them in an "honest aged" condition. I now only repaint common wrecks.

The Record No.05 has a brazed repair to the LH wing - it's very capable of the rough work a jack plane is intended for. I have nicer and older No.05s;
The Record No.04ss has a broken wing - it's a great plane and does all I ask of it;
I use the Clifton No.3 for fine work. I have a couple of very nice pre-WW2 Record No.03/03ss - put aside.

Tools are made to be used - but at some point they begin the cross over into industrial archaeology. Look after them and treat them accordingly.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[blackrodd]

Tools were made to be used, Old tools ought to be preserved and treated with respect but every once in a while used and enjoyed, by the current "custodian"
I try and use my odd tool bits and pieces on small and unusual job's repairing a window , door or chair etc.
Regards Rodders

 

[bugbear]

Here's an extreme (and hypothetical, of course) test case to think about.

Imagine that Larry Ellison (a multi-billionaire) had been reading
the Arts & Mysteries posts of Adam Cherubini, and been inspired,
having never done woodwork before, to "have a go" at 18th century
woodwork. Being rather wealthy he decides to buy, sharpen,
and use a handy, complete set - the Seaton Tool Chest.

How would people feel about that?

Is it "His money, his tools, his rules", or "those tools,
with their astonishing provenance, completeness as a set,
and preservation are a precious record".

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

It's clearly the latter.

Although thinking about the extremes is useful, I think that for most of us, the decisions are all in a big fuzzy area somewhere between ordinary and historic. The boundaries are not clear and they shift the more you learn.

For example, I bought a Greenslade ovolo plane on eBay for a fiver, meaning to use it. It's actually mint - never honed, never oiled - so is a rare survivor. It would be pre-WW2 as the factory was destroyed in the Bristol blitz.
Should I keep it as it is and spend another fiver for an ordinary user?