Powered Respirators

[Sideways]

I would have thought that was a given.

But getting back to my question - and with just regard to respiratory protection. How would a P3 filter in a GVS (half face) mask compare to a P2 in a powered unit such as the powercap. Clearly P3 i better than P2 but is the powered system more efficient?

Makes me wonder why the powercap does not come with a P3 filter

P3 is a finer filter than P2, so offers better protection.
P2 and P3 are "standard" terms so they are comparable across companies.
BUT.
A Positive Air Pressure Respirator (or whatever PAPR stands for) is a different beast to a cheap half mask so comparing the P2 and P3 alone doesn't tell the whole story.
PAPR sets create a positive air pressure inside the mask at all times, even when breathing in. Unlike a typical half mask where the wearer breathing in creates a suction that pulls air through the filter.
With a half mask, if it doesn't fit tightly, you can suck unfiltered air in around the mask.
With a PAPR set the positive pressure means any leaks allow filtered air to leak out and never unfiltered air in.
A PAPR is much safer than a cheap mask like for like. I suspect a PAPR with a poorer P2 filter is better than a cheap mask with a P3, but in practice PAPR sets are normally used with a good P3 filter. After all, why would you cheap out on the filter after spending serious money on the powered set.

The very best protection I know of is from a full face set with an external air feed drawn from outside of any source of contamination, the sort of things used in professional spraying. These generally feed through very high grade filters, moisture traps, etc and of at least P3 grade.

 

[Rewound]

P3 is a finer filter than P2, so offers better protection.
P2 and P3 are "standard" terms so they are comparable across companies.
BUT.
A Positive Air Pressure Respirator (or whatever PAPR stands for) is a different beast to a cheap half mask so comparing the P2 and P3 alone doesn't tell the whole story.
PAPR sets create a positive air pressure inside the mask at all times, even when breathing in. Unlike a typical half mask where the wearer breathing in creates a suction that pulls air through the filter.
With a half mask, if it doesn't fit tightly, you can suck unfiltered air in around the mask.
With a PAPR set the positive pressure means any leaks allow filtered air to leak out and never unfiltered air in.
A PAPR is much safer than a cheap mask like for like. I suspect a PAPR with a poorer P2 filter is better than a cheap mask with a P3, but in practice PAPR sets are normally used with a good P3 filter. After all, why would you cheap out on the filter after spending serious money on the powered set.

The very best protection I know of is from a full face set with an external air feed drawn from outside of any source of contamination, the sort of things used in professional spraying. These generally feed through very high grade filters, moisture traps, etc and of at least P3 grade.

and this is what is puzzling me, the 'powercap' seems to come fitted with an equivalent filter to a P2 ?

Powered Air Respiratory protection to EN 12941:1988 TH1P. Assigned Protection Factor 10 (UK classification) equivalent to an EN 149 FFP2.
https://www.jspsafety.com/products/...41100_Powercap-Active-iP-8hr-Multi-Plug-Black
May be I am wrong, may be I am misunderstanding something?

But it strikes me as odd, that for the sake of a few quid (<2% of overall cost) they would use a lesser mask on a system costing the best part of £300

p2 only seems to offer 94%
p3 seems to offer 99.95%

clearly the positive air pressure of a PAPR with a P2 filter will achieve the full 94%
The P3 of my GVS is likely to achieve less than the 99.95% due to moments of poor fit.

but if moments of 'poor fit' are less than 3½ minutes per hour, then my £20 GVS will be better than a £300 Powercap.

Is my thinking here fundamentally flawed?

 

[Sideways]

The only thing I can think of is that the powercap is a relatively budget solution maybe aimed at less demanding applications.
The more expensive 3M and Sundstrom respirators are both two speed devices with displays and feedback that increases power to their motors to maintain airflow as the filters trap more particles. The good Swiss Optrel PAPR products designed for welding use are also supplied with P3 filters as standard.
I couldn't spot any mention of these features in the Powercap brochure. Maybe at the budget end of the market the fans are less powerful, the electronics are omitted, and lower capacity batteries are used to meet the lightweight needs of a head mounted fan. All these constraints may make them unable to maintain the required airflow through a P3 for a full shift.

 

[MikeH]

I find that ear bud headphones work with most ear defenders. I have Air Pods Pro which also have noise cancelling and I find to be sufficient alone for most hearing protection, but I put ear defenders on top of them when using my lunchbox planer as that thing makes a horrible din. The combined protection is really quite impressive.

Good idea, I have some decent buds but haven't tried them for this yet, will give it a go. Many thanks.

 

[wallace]

I would have thought that was a given.

But getting back to my question - and with just regard to respiratory protection. How would a P3 filter in a GVS (half face) mask compare to a P2 in a powered unit such as the powercap. Clearly P3 i better than P2 but is the powered system more efficient?

Makes me wonder why the powercap does not come with a P3 filter

The P3 in the half mask offers more protection irrespective of the P2 being powered, the thing is the half mask relies on the user moving the air whereas the powered one the air is being delivered by the fan.
If you've ever used a mask that seals on your face for hours you will agree its not very nice after a while. A powered mask is effortless. I think it depends what a persons exposure is as well, if I were a professional I would want a powered P3 setup,

 

[Frank House]

The face shield ones such as Powercap

Anyone have anything good or bad to say on these. I'm thinking of getting one, but they seem crazily overpriced! How well do they last? face shields get scratch easily? how often do you have to change the filters (how longs a piece of string question)

I have had a Power Cap for several years (about 10, estimated from family events, but not checked).
The battery compartment fell apart not long after I bought it, but I was easily able to improvise a substitute.
I recently came to put the cap on and noticed what looked like metal filings inside the faceplate.
Surprised to see anything but wood, and not expecting even that, I looked more closely and saw that the objects are powder from de-plasticised light gray foam plastic, presumably polyurethane, which forms part of the lining on the inside of the device.

 

[david_1]

I have a long-term review to add for the Powercap (bought from Axminster). The price is quite a hike from passive filters but also much less than industry level systems like 3M. The power cap base function is good but the production could do with a few mods.

The velcro that holds the face seal to the inner headband is a couple of velcro stickers which soon fail. Easy to replace with better.

The clips holding the battery on are not strong enough and are easy to brake.

The electrical interface battery to lead (the plug) is a bit loose and can stop the unit with movement and need re-adjusting while using sometimes.

The elastic rear tightening band is poor quality elastic and gets threadbare/stretches out after time.

These are all easy to correct in the factory, so a pain, but again the core function of this unit is good - comfortable, the battery still lasts all day.

I hope this is useful to folk reading thinking of buying - go for it just accept it will benefit from being treated delicately and being dusted off and stored in the plastic paint container it comes in between each use.

 

[kinverkid]

I've been using the Powercap for many years. Can't recall how many but the manufacturing date is 2004 and it seems to me like I've had it since around that year. It's the original design where the battery pack is not mounted on the head unit but on a long plug-in 'telephone' type cable and clips onto a belt or put it in the rear pocket of a turners smock. Besides changing the filters which needs to be done with all masks, the only other replacement I made is the face seal. For me that is easy to replace. I took a template from the original and made new ones from my neoprene stock. Even though I have always used the face shield protection film and has kept it clear and relatively scratch free, I reckon I should probably replace the acrylic face shield itself. I seems fine but after so many years its effectiveness may have deteriorated. Who knows? The batteries are the same ones it came with and still give me a full days use (5 - 8 hours maybe).

 

[Agent_zed]

and this is what is puzzling me, the 'powercap' seems to come fitted with an equivalent filter to a P2 ?

Powered Air Respiratory protection to EN 12941:1988 TH1P. Assigned Protection Factor 10 (UK classification) equivalent to an EN 149 FFP2.
https://www.jspsafety.com/products/...41100_Powercap-Active-iP-8hr-Multi-Plug-Black
May be I am wrong, may be I am misunderstanding something?

But it strikes me as odd, that for the sake of a few quid (<2% of overall cost) they would use a lesser mask on a system costing the best part of £300

p2 only seems to offer 94%
p3 seems to offer 99.95%

clearly the positive air pressure of a PAPR with a P2 filter will achieve the full 94%
The P3 of my GVS is likely to achieve less than the 99.95% due to moments of poor fit.

but if moments of 'poor fit' are less than 3½ minutes per hour, then my £20 GVS will be better than a £300 Powercap.

Is my thinking here fundamentally flawed?

My thinking on this (and it may well be wrong) is that for most of the time a p2 will be more than enough. Also the 94% is a minimum so could well be higher. If you think about it in real world situations walking down a street with cars going by you are likely to inhale significant amounts of dust ranging from tyre particles, diesel fumes, unburnt hydrocarbons, brake linings, pollen, bits of leaves and wood dust etc etc Even on a beach you will be inhaling sand particles which 'could' potentially cause silicosis depending on the sand type. You don't wear a mask in those situations and are likely to be fine.

However for some situations, eg asbestos removal, you want to filter the most you possibly can before breathing the air.

Yes some wood dusts are toxic in large quanitites and it's best not to breathe it in but a p2 mask is going to remove so much of it that the risk will be negligable. If the dust is so bad that even the tiniest bit is going to cause you harm then even a p3 filter isn't going to help you as even they don't filter 100% and you would have to have clean air piped in from an outside source.

I did a toxicology module at uni and the lecturer said even if he sanded asbestos at the front of the class the risk is pretty minimal that anyone would get ill from it. Sustained exposure over time would be the issue and even then it can be luck of the draw.

Please don't take this to read 'don't bother to wear a mask' I'm merely trying to point out that there is always a risk level but in my opinion a p2 is going to exceed the requirements in pretty much all wood turning situations unless you have a 4ft x 4ft shed with no ventilation and are sanding mahogany for 12hours straight.

But at the end of the day it is a personal choice so if a p3 filter on a forced air system calms any concerns you have then that is the one to go with.

for the record I do wear a p2 respirator mask for most cutting/sanding etc operations and I do think it is important.

 

[Paul Hannaby]

The issue with wood dust isn't it's toxicity, it's what it does to your lungs and nose over time.

 

[Agent_zed]

The issue with wood dust isn't it's toxicity, it's what it does to your lungs and nose over time.

That's pretty much one and the same thing, depending how you want to classify 'Toxic'. Wiki says 'Physical toxicants are substances that, due to their physical nature, interfere with biological processes. Examples include coal dust, asbestos fibres or finely divided silicon dioxide, all of which can ultimately be fatal if inhaled.'. Some wood dusts fit into this category. Toxicity - Wikipedia

This article would seem to indicate that a lot of woods are considered toxic and judging by the references the word toxic is commonly used in reference to harmful wood dust.
https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-and-toxicity/

 

[XTiffy]

Agent_Zed,
I would argue against your university lecturer on sanding asbestos. In my time in the Royal Navy (1960s/70s), asbestos was in widespread use, lagging steam pipes etc. In our ex-navy association we have lost many members to asbestosis. One friend currently in the last agonising days of his life served in just one ship and being Radio electrical had very little known exposure to asbestos but still suffered. It takes many years (normally) for the effects to be felt and it is devastating, with a life expectancy of up to 18 months, but often shorter after diagnosis.

 

[Paul Hannaby]

That's pretty much one and the same thing, depending how you want to classify 'Toxic'. Wiki says 'Physical toxicants are substances that, due to their physical nature, interfere with biological processes. Examples include coal dust, asbestos fibres or finely divided silicon dioxide, all of which can ultimately be fatal if inhaled.'. Some wood dusts fit into this category. Toxicity - Wikipedia

This article would seem to indicate that a lot of woods are considered toxic and judging by the references the word toxic is commonly used in reference to harmful wood dust.
https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-and-toxicity/

You are missing the point that even wood dust categorised as non toxic will still cause health problems over time so just because a particular type of wood doesn't appear on any of the lists of hazardous or toxic woods doesn't mean it's safe!

 

[Agent_zed]

You are missing the point that even wood dust categorised as non toxic will still cause health problems over time so just because a particular type of wood doesn't appear on any of the lists of hazardous or toxic woods doesn't mean it's safe!

I think we are arguing the same point. If it causes a health problem over time then it can be deemed toxic. It just may be to a greater or lesser extent based on the wood (or dust) in question and may not appear on a list of known toxic dusts.

But this will be subject to a whole host of variables inc how the dust is generated, how often the dust is generated, the ventilation of the room, the air flow in a room etc

My point is, to me, using a P2 mask for a bit of sanding on the weekend is going to perfectly adequate. If you are in a workshop sanding 5 days a week then it probably won't be (although an industrial setting is likely to have proper dust extraction).

There is always going to be dust in a workshop but you are not always going to be wearing a mask. e.g you are doing a bit of planing and you pick up your plane off the shelf and disturb some dust into the air. You won't (I assume) be wearing a mask so will likely breathe in some dust, which is going to be far more than the difference between a p2 and a p3. Even walking to your workshop you are likely to breathe in a whole host of dust particles. My car is regularly covered in red dust from the building site 1/2mile away, but I don't wear a mask in my garden.

Even if you wear a mask chances are you'll come out of workshop and take it off and your clothes will be full of dust, which you'll shake off before going in the house.

By all means reduce it as much as you can, that is sensible. My opinion is P2 as a minimum and as others have said have additional dust extraction/ventilation.
If you start thinking about it too hard you have to question what the P2/p3 filters are made from and how many of those fibres will come loose in the course of using a mask. Are the nano fibres worse than wood fibres?

 

[Blister]

I have been through all the toy resperators and now only use Sundstrom kit , I have 2 of these , Great bit of kit that has a pre filters over the main filters , It really is surprising how much dust the pre filters catch , making the main filters last longer , And a lot cheaper than a new pair of lungs if you can find any.

 

[Democritus]

I have been through all the toy resperators and now only use Sundstrom kit , I have 2 of these , Great bit of kit that has a pre filters over the main filters , It really is surprising how much dust the pre filters catch , making the main filters last longer , And a lot cheaper than a new pair of lungs if you can find any.

Blister,
Do these products protect against impact (such as might happen with a blank coming off a lathe) , or are they solely concerned with protecting airways from particulates of various sorts?
Incidentally, I’m sure that the makers of Powercap and similar will be thrilled to have their products described as ‘toys’.
D.

 

[kinverkid]

Blister,
Do these products protect against impact (such as might happen with a blank coming off a lathe) , or are they solely concerned with protecting airways from particulates of various sorts?
Incidentally, I’m sure that the makers of Powercap and similar will be thrilled to have their products described as ‘toys’.
D.

The power cap and Trend face shields will offer good protection from impact to the face and head when regular woodturning. The other probably do too but I've not any experience with them to comment. They are certainly better than what we had before they became affordable to the general turning population. You will still need to swap masks if using either of the the above to put a finish on your piece especially finishes like cellulose and CA glue because they are not designed to stop fumes. They are purely dust masks.

 

[Blister]

Blister,
Do these products protect against impact (such as might happen with a blank coming off a lathe) , or are they solely concerned with protecting airways from particulates of various sorts?
Incidentally, I’m sure that the makers of Powercap and similar will be thrilled to have their products described as ‘toys’.
D.

I will let you look up the finer details but this is the one I have x2
"
Discover…
Once you’ve chosen a powered respirator unit to fit your working environment, you also need to select a headtop or face shield that suits your application too. The Sundström SR 570 is a modern and innovative product with highly adjustable components for a great fit. It’s well-balanced and lightweight but it’s also robust enough to suit the challenging requirements of the workplace. It features a durable face shield with a flip-up visor for eye and face protection. It’s also fitted with an attachment to allow for hearing protection to be added so it easily fits with other PPE as necessary. It’s designed for use with the SR 500 or SR 700 powered respirators and is also suitable for use with the SR 507 compressed air attachment.

Learn more…
• Vent which adjusts direction of the air flow for maximum comfort
• Features a 30mm Euro slot to be combined with ear defenders
• Approved to TH3 when combined with a powered fan unit
• Durable, scratch-resistant, flip-up polycarbonate visor
• Wide field of vision
• Adjustable for height, width and angle

Get technical…
EN 12491:1998 + A2:2008
EN 166 1B
Assigned protection factor (APF): 40 "

Re coming off the lathe , In 40+ years of turning I have not had a blank / chunk come off my lathe , If it looks unsutable it does not go on my lathe , Re toys , Yes I has had others before the Sundstrom units and was never happy , After some hours turning and sanding went into my house coughing and sneezing , Blow my nose and have a white tissue with lots of wood dust on it , Not good , You make your choice and I make mine .

 

[Democritus]

Cheers, Blister.
I’ll have a look at the details.
While, given sensible precautions, it is probably rare for blanks to come off a lathe, it does happen, and that is why I rate impact protection so highly.
D.

 

[Agent_zed]

Cheers, Blister.
I’ll have a look at the details.
While, given sensible precautions, it is probably rare for blanks to come off a lathe, it does happen, and that is why I rate impact protection so highly.
D.

There was a sad news story posted on here a few weeks back of a 30yr old who recently was hit and killed by a workpiece flying off his lathe.

I hadn't fully realised that different safety glasses/shields offer different impact protection and shouldn't be used with some high speed tools. My full face shield is rated for high speed impacts as are my bolle glasses but my standard type dewalt glasses are not.