Possible can of worms

[marcros]

I have a six inch Creusen grinder with white wheels and two Sorby 447 jigs. I grind chisels and plane irons on MDF discs on the lathe with abrasive paper stuck on them. (I also have a strong plywood box with a formica top that fixes down on the bed bars as a sanding table at centre height - no adjustment, but perfectly square (good for pen blanks)).
I don't know any turner that hones tools and I know a pro turner and several very good turners who don't get on with ProEdges because they don't like the dead flat grind. There's no way I could justify the cost for what advantage one would give me over and above what I've already got.

Yeahbut...

A new creusen grinder and 2 new 447 jigs would be almost the price of the Sorby. You are also an experienced turner and know what you are doing. I agree that for you, the additional benefit is marginal and not worth it for the cost.

To a beginner or somebody with nothing more than a performance power grinder fitted with the original wheel, it is a different story. Even having a box with a grinder in and another box with the jigs in, then working out what to put where can be intimidating. You pay your money and take your choice but the lack of any doubt with regards to setting up and getting going with the proedge is a huge positive to some.

At the end of the day there are numerous sharpening systems. Some are better than others, some people have a preference for one over another (rightly or wrongly). Whether a pro dislikes the dead flat edge or not, they would universally agree that a sharp tool is preferable to a blunt one, whatever the method used.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Certainly. I bought one jig from a member here and one off evilbay. The Creusen was £40 at the market.

 

[Jelly]

One thing I have noticed is tools taken straight from the 120G belt and used are far better than the tools brought to a mirror finish using the leather honing belt; honing seems to make the tool skid over the surface whereas a directly belt ground tool has serious bite;

I have also experienced this, my carving tools (and smoothing plane and "good chisels") are polished to a mirror finish (leather wheel and white compound), like that they cut through even very splintery timbers like butter with a glossy finish...

I tried the same approach to turning tools and found that I didn't get enough bite to control the cuts I was taking, and would end up bouncing off then catching resulting in a dog-rough finish.

I had up to now put this down to skill (of all the things I might claim to be somewhat competent at, my turning is by far the most artless), but it may actually be that I was better off with a tougher texture on the cutting edge giving better cutting action and/or providing the force feedback I need for accurate proprioception of the tool's relative position to the workpiece...

Will have to experiment with that.

 

[Jacob]

I have also experienced this, my carving tools (and smoothing plane and "good chisels") are polished to a mirror finish (leather wheel and white compound), like that they cut through even very splintery timbers like butter with a glossy finish...

I tried the same approach to turning tools and found that I didn't get enough bite to control the cuts I was taking, and would end up bouncing off then catching resulting in a dog-rough finish.

I had up to now put this down to skill (of all the things I might claim to be somewhat competent at, my turning is by far the most artless), but it may actually be that I was better off with a tougher texture on the cutting edge giving better cutting action and/or providing the force feedback I need for accurate proprioception of the tool's relative position to the workpiece...

Will have to experiment with that.

I bought a new plane once and the sole was not highly polished but was ground very neatly with scratches going front to back parallel. Result was it tracked dead straight when first used, same reason as your non polished chisels working better.
The effect doesn't last long as the scratches soon lose their sharpness even if still visible.
But it does mean you don't need to polish a plane sole - I flatten with 80 grit wet n dry but against a lath as a fence so the scratches are lined up straight. The sharpness is soon lost and they become as low friction as a highly polished one, after only a short period of use.

 

[Nelly111s]

Where's the best ( cheapest ) place to buy the pro edge ?

Try Biven Machinery in Blackpool. Great company to deal with.

 

[Blaidd-Drwg]

This has been a valuable discussion for me. I've put the Sorby ProEdge on my shortlist. If you are in the US you can find it and all of the accoutrement here:
https://www.packardwoodworks.com/sharp-proed.html

 

[Lazurus]

No polishing for me.

 

[Garno]

This has been a valuable discussion for me. I've put the Sorby ProEdge on my shortlist. If you are in the US you can find it and all of the accoutrement here:
https://www.packardwoodworks.com/sharp-proed.html

I fully agree, there has been a lot of really good advice given both for and against the ProEdge.
I find myself going around in circles about what to choose,
Being unable to visit Ian who had kindly invited me to his home to see the proedge due to lockdown, I ended up having a long chat with him on the phone (very nice bloke and it was an absolute pleasure talking with him) and as a result of that and members on here I am 95% certain I will go go for it.
Thank you everyone who contributed I hope I have not forgotten to put a "Like" or "Thank you" on any posts if I have please let me know.
Gary

 

[Daniel2]

This fascinating thread has also drawn my attention to a new (to me), method of sharpening.
I am not a woodturner, but bother wood with handplanes and chisels.
I have decided that I probably cannot live without one, now I know of their existence.
As well as the Proedge, I was browsing the Axminster offerings and I see they have one that runs backwards,
ie; away from the operator.
What, if any, advantage is there to this ? And, if it be so great, why do they continue to offer the regular running version?
I would appreciate any thoughts on this.

ATB,
Daniel

 

[picsnbits]

To my mind there is one major difference between sharpening on a ProEdge and any sort of wheel grinder any that is the shape of the bevel. The ProEdge machined produce a flat bevel while sharpening on a wheel creates a hollow grind where only the edge and the heel are on the same plane.
There are pros and cons for each. For me the big plus for a hollow grind is that it makes it easy to touch up the edge with a diamond card, reducing the number of trips to the grinder.
Having said that I use the original Sorby Pro Edge because of the ease of creating a repeatable shape to the edge. My excuse is that I am a (retired) scientist and only very recently a Woodturner.

 

[Blaidd-Drwg]

I agree with that sentiment. And your signature re-enforces it. Life is too short. I'm a hobbyist (so far) and if jigs and tools can help me get back to using my tools, I'm all for it. Learning to freehand a scary sharp set of chisels is not my motivation.

 

[Daniel2]

To my mind there is one major difference between sharpening on a ProEdge and any sort of wheel grinder any that is the shape of the bevel. The ProEdge machined produce a flat bevel while sharpening on a wheel creates a hollow grind where only the edge and the heel are on the same plane.
There are pros and cons for each. For me the big plus for a hollow grind is that it makes it easy to touch up the edge with a diamond card, reducing the number of trips to the grinder.
Having said that I use the original Sorby Pro Edge because of the ease of creating a repeatable shape to the edge. My excuse is that I am a (retired) scientist and only very recently a Woodturner.

Yes, but my question was not regarding the relative merits betwixt hollow and flat grinding.
It was specifically regarding Axminster's reverse running belt linisher.

Axminster Trade Ultimate Edge Reverse Running Sharpening System

What possible advantages might there be to having the belt running away from the workpiece, as opposed to, the more traditional, running toward.

ATB,
Daniel

 

[Garno]

Yes, but my question was not regarding the relative merits betwixt hollow and flat grinding.
It was specifically regarding Axminster's reverse running belt linisher.

Axminster Trade Ultimate Edge Reverse Running Sharpening System

What possible advantages might there be to having the belt running away from the workpiece, as opposed to, the more traditional, running toward.

ATB,
Daniel

In fairness to him Daniel I don't think he was replying to your query, it seemed more like adding some more valuable input to this thread.

As to your question I honestly have no idea as to what purpose the reverse running would do, at a guess it may be to remove the burr but as I say I really do not know sorry

 

[Daniel2]

In fairness to him Daniel I don't think he was replying to your query, it seemed more like adding some more valuable input to this thread.
....

Thank's Garno, I think you're right. I had taken it as a reply to my post.
Sorry @picsnbits

 

[Torx]

Comments from the ex-pro who taught me - won’t mention his name in case he doesn’t want me to, this was years ago when I considered one:

“All woodturning tools need a hollow grind in order for the bevel to rub properly behind the cutting edge. This is what gives the finish. Sorby know this as well, and have always known it, so if they tell you I am wrong they are talking BS! It would be ideal in a school for technicians to sharpen firmer chisels, mortice chisels etc., and plane irons, but as for woodturning tools don't even go there!! Having said that, although it would not provide the correct hollow grind, it would produce a sharp tool with a 'flat bevel' if you see what I mean, and a sharp tool is probably better than a 'I haven't got the foggiest idea how to sharpen it' tool, even though it is wrong!!!”

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Exactly what the pro turner I used to turn with said.

 

[Retired]

Hi,

It's easy spending a great deal of money buying the best sharpening system and try for the ultimate sharpness but I wonder how many don't bother sharpening at all just switching to tipped tools which I don't think have been mentioned but I see a lot of. Recently I made three tipped tools at little cost the carbide tips bought in packs of ten through eBay. Because of the winter weather I've not yet really tried them out but hope to once I can get into the workshop without being frozen.

I've been around a bit and seen many instances where this or that is best; best chisels including Japanese types very expensive planes bought more for show than actual use; whilst restoring vintage valve radios some guys insisted on buying very expensive balanced valves for amplifiers saying they could tell the difference in sound?

Sorry if I'm diverting this interesting thread but what about the skill of the turner; an experienced turner can produce a very good finish on the work straight from the tool which is ground on less than perfect equipment but a novice using a perfectly ground tool could well produce a poor finish on the work.

How many spend more time sharpening chasing the perfect cutting edge than actually doing turning; sharpening and collecting tools can become an obsession; once the work is sanded and finished who could tell what tools had been used to create it?

What do production woodturners use to sharpen their tools after all time is money to them.

I believe tipped tools stay sharp up to 40 times longer than HSS tools; I've used TC tooling for years on my lathes and in my routers but have only just got around to spending time in the workshop although the time has been cut short by our dire climate. A razor sharp HSS tool won't stay sharp for long hitting bark or knots.

Buying tipped turning tools can be expensive but making my own is interesting and not difficult at all.

Obviously the person with the money has the choice of what to buy; I'm just a tight Yorkshireman who likes to make his own tools and even machines at a fraction of new prices for something not as good. Just a thought so please don't jump all over me.

Kind regards, Colin.

My new tipped tools; two are finished the third still needing the handle but finished after the picture was taken; What's the difference between these I made and those bought from a tool stockist apart from price? Round bright steel bar stock for shafts; 2" square blanks for handles; a bit of steel pipe for ferrules and the tips plus the enjoyment of making and using my own tools.

The three tip profiles to date but more can be added later if required. I drilled and tapped for two of the tips but just because I have the kit I brazed the third tip; I have a high speed diamond hone I made using a very cheap router and diamond cup wheel so I can even sharpen my carbide tooling.

I have a large selection of turning tools but generally only use about three of them

Has anyone some spare warm weather I could scrounge then I can start making shavings again.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I've just bought the same three tips, about a fiver from China.

 

[Tris]

If you have chance, take a look at Lyle Jamieson (? spelling) on YouTube, I found his video Lyle on sharpening lathe tools really clear and made sense.

 

[Mark Hancock]

Comments from the ex-pro who taught me - won’t mention his name in case he doesn’t want me to, this was years ago when I considered one:

“All woodturning tools need a hollow grind in order for the bevel to rub properly behind the cutting edge. This is what gives the finish. Sorby know this as well, and have always known it, so if they tell you I am wrong they are talking BS! It would be ideal in a school for technicians to sharpen firmer chisels, mortice chisels etc., and plane irons, but as for woodturning tools don't even go there!! Having said that, although it would not provide the correct hollow grind, it would produce a sharp tool with a 'flat bevel' if you see what I mean, and a sharp tool is probably better than a 'I haven't got the foggiest idea how to sharpen it' tool, even though it is wrong!!!”

Sorry but I would disagree totally with your ex-pro. The hollow ground bevel has some disadvantages hence the reason the heel is often softened on spindle and bowl gouges. That said there is no real advantage for moving to a flat bevel but if a convex bevel is used there is a major benefit...much less likely to catch/dig in.