poor quality products

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looking round the 'shop' I feel the need to reply in a somewhat different vein.

there's a 35 year old B&D drill (orange/metal) that's still running fine

a MacAllistair combination mitre/table saw that, at £99 and 2Kw has sawn a lot of timber in it's time at little cost and, importantly to many, small space requirements (and yes the mitre guage/track could be a lot better - but the fence is surprisingly good)

an ancient Bosch POF 500 that probably manages an in-between rating, but it's no Makita or Trend

the pillar drill does what the marketing department promised, at a price I could afford at the time, the bench top planner manages the same, as does the B&D badged Pro whatever sanding unit that has manged to chew through many belts and discs as well as a belt (not to mention the sawdust!).

There are at least another 15 items with motors that have performed 'as sold' - so far.

So I don't think it's fair to label, directly or by implication, all this 'stuff' as junk.

Having said that I will admit to being lured to a Power Pro Bandsaw on the basis or price and size - and after a lot of hours returning it. I may, or may not, have used the word junk on that day #-o In fairness it was clear the box had previously been opened so it may have been a stock management issue - but the 6 year old Kitty I recently acquired from a gentleman on here is obviously in a different class (and price bracket).

As some have already alluded, price and value are very different issues. Some cheaper items are good value for an individuals needs in the same way as a quality item might represent poor value (ignoring the potential for resale).

Buying the best you can afford, and including SH items in your consideration, is definitely good advice - but cheap isn't necessarily junk, in the same way as expensive doesn't necessarily guarantee well designed and manufactured.
 
I think that most of the mass produced rubbish that is sold in "weekend wood shops" is targeted at the "weekend DIYer" and probably only gets used once to do a job.

Judging by the nearly new "secondhand" stuff appearing in the Spring at bootfairs anyway.

That being said, I will say I have a more up-market B&Q sliding mitre saw which I bought secondhand for a tenner, made some mods..put on a Freud Pro blade and it cuts like a dream!

Conversely, I have been very disappointed with so called "quality" brands like DeWalt who seem to have rebadged junk lately. They are not alone but I thnk they rely on their brand to sell....we shall see how long that ploy lasts. Scheppach and Kity are others that have followed that route.

One interesting point made here...old tools made by brands we now see as junk...like B&D and others. There were some classic models of some tools make 20 or 30 years ago that seem to go on forever...so you can get a bargain secondhand.

I never buy new now unless it is a vital tool for the job and then I tend to buy best...and even then if I hae exhausted bootfairs and eBay possibilities!

Jim
 
jimi43":1fu4f6h0 said:
One interesting point made here...old tools made by brands we now see as junk...like B&D and others. There were some classic models of some tools make 20 or 30 years ago that seem to go on forever...so you can get a bargain secondhand.

I had a pleasant surprise the other day: whilst visiting my parents, dad asked me to put up a new nameplate on the corner of their reconstituted-stone garage*.

I hadn't brought any tools, but he offered his 45-year-old B+D drill. It's got a two-speed mechanical gearbox (lift tab and twist), and no hammer action at all. I nearly said 'no', but only two holes were needed, so I thought I'd try it.

I had quite forgotten how good it is: plenty of torque, absolutely no vibration and running very true. It was only just slower than my Makita SDS would have been. OK, you couldn't drive a four-inch diamond hole saw with it (I do that with the Makita sometimes), but it was really very impressive, significantly better than either of the last two Bosch cordless ones I've bought.

Even B+D made really good tools in the past!

Cheers,

E.


*We let them use the house too, when there's snow. Daft language, English...
 
+1 for all that's been said. As Steve said, buy one good tool a week. I still use the pliers and wire cutters that I bought as a Plessey (remember them?) apprentice back in 1967, so I bought one tool a week for my toolbox - Rob
 
Silverline, Faithfull, Tool Station, all well known for spending more on advertising than quality control.
Buy cheap, buy twice, learn from the first experience quickly. If you have looked on here more than a few times you will have heard the same things over and over again, my first socket set was Kinzo, followed by Hilka followed by replacement sockets by Bedford and Britool. (I didn't learn this advice too quickly then)
You don't get good long lasting tools cheap and I doubt you can get cheap tools to last you long.
Do look for quality, please ask for advice (not from Screwfix or Tool Station) from a decent tool shop. Where are you? Most regular posters could point you in the direction of a retailer that they trust.
 
got to disagree a bit, being a cabinet maker my machines get a lot of use i have a lot of bosch tools, but also have a planer thicknesser from macalister, this machine gets used 3 or 4 times a week, had it for 4 years and still going strong. i have 3 routers ,a macalister a makita and a cheapy from the aldi for 40 quid, all get used regulary [ raise-a-panel doors etc ] and all do a good job.
john
 
As has been said you generally get what you pay for.
Those old B&D drills were solid, metal and made to last. Now everything is made to fit a price point and generally won't last as long. However by the law of averages there are bound to be exceptions, where all the bearings fit properly and you've got a good motor and so on. There will also be those where the bearings are way too sloppy and the motor is made of cheese. The budget manufacturers hope that most products fit between these extremes so they make enough money without their products lasting for ever, so the customer is reasonably happy with their purchase and buy again.
 
On price points etc - now that you mention them Pete - then back to the bigger picture. The problem with dodgy kit is in many ways not so much that 'below this line' is junk, 'above this line' is OK. Oh that it was so simple!

The fact is that (a) a lot depends on what you need, (b) lower end products seem to be highly inconsistent in their quality and capability, and (c) misleading promotional and advertising bulls1t means that the box/the brochure/the advert/the demo video on the little TV screen in the store sure as hell won't tell you what to expect.

So barring being a betting man (woman?) taking a walk on the wild side is always unpredictable. It's problematical to buy at the lower end of the professional window too - where the performance and quality issues are subtler but the deception is still rampant . Who wants a piece of kit that eases out of adjustment every time they sneeze?

The core problem to me is the rampant deception and 'don't give a ****' attitudes of those selling, especially into the lower end of the market. If as before it was just a case of choosing a price to match your required quality that would be fine.

If you describe the requirement accurately and somebody sells or without speaking up allows you to buy a machine or other bit of kit that won't reasonably do the job then by any standard you've been done. (never mind that the situation has degraded so much that nowadays the average store person won't know what you are talking about)

Why is it that this sort of carry on doesn't result in terminal loss of reputation for those makers and sellers? It's actually a much bigger problem than just woodworking kit - the rise of weasel wording in insurance policies, brochures, financial products and the like are other examples. Mags in cahoots with advertisers don't help much either.

Could it be that the big change in recent years has been in our own attitudes? That by becoming much more accepting of this sort of behaviour/lazier about going to bat when we've been had that we're creating the space these people need to operate in?

These days the macho and uncaring modern mindset has created a reality where if we get sold a pup we're more likely to feel embarassment (to not want to publicise the fact for fear of looking stupid - there's always some dude hell bent on putting one down to big up his/her own ego) than to get the seller to sort the problem. Our laziness means we can't be bothered either. So most of us shuffle off to instead try to offload it on a next level down dupe on Ebay or somewhere like that. Yet we somehow find it OK to whinge when as inevitably happens we find that we're the dupe in question.

:? Maybe it's join up the dots time....
 
Its not a case of the more you pay but the price bracket. Just for example the Festool jigsaw is £200+ and is pants. You can buy better jig saws in the £100-150 bracket. For £100 on a jig saw your going to get a quality piece of kit and for !50 you will get the best jigsaw there is. (Not saying festool are crap but the jigsaw they make is) To follow example for a decent ROS again the £120 mark your going to get a quality tool. You don't have to buy the best but also don't think the more your pay the better it is.

Don't think one brand can make the best in its available range either. I mix my tools. I try to buy the best there is but I haven't always paid the most nor do I have only one brand of power tool in my workshop.

Cheap tools are useless but i would disagree that all silverline is crap. Only most of it is. Knowing what to buy from silverline helps. There guaranteed for life so the cheap **** ones you just send back for free replacement or refund.

As a commercial user of tools and someone that loves tools, I have used many silverline tools. A few i own and use daily/weekly. There 300mm F clamps are very good, i only have two of these with this brand on but have used them weekly for around 3 years now and there great. Silverline sash cramps. Not the greatest cramp in the world but certainly worth it. I use these with higher quality ones. It does save a large amount of money if used this way and in 2 years all 8 of the silverline ones i have all are still going strong with no issues. Biscuit jointer (orange version) had it 4 years + still going strong without a blade change. Its very accurate and just as versatile then any other i have used. The dust extraction on this is the best i have seen on any tool. Sockets are good, deep impact and so on. There titanium drill HSS bits are worth the money to.

On a hole I avoid silverline, as alot of there stuff i have used and broken or just look of poor quality. I wouldn't recommend there power tools either other then the biscuit jointer. But the above i would use along side better brands, its not a bad combination at all.

Also there props i have used in France to help board a ceiling. I haven't seen another brand of these but did the job and didn't fail once.
 
I'm glad some balance has returned to this thread. It started off simply 'slating' anything that wasn't a trophy brand, but recent posts have come down to earth a tad. We all 'woodwork' to our budget, and if that means Silverline or Power Pro then so be it.
I'd love a top of the range saw with a sliding table but as a struggling newbie I have to make do with a repaired 15" contractors saw with a false top on it so I could get a mitre slot to try to increase it's versatility (mitre'd with my Silverline router and B&Q straight bit). Total cost for the saw is £1.60, I kid you not! I've got every cheap make from MICA (WHO????) to Parkside (LIDL). Simply, if I did not have them, then I would have nothing!

Yes they are cheap, but I love them and wouldn't be without them.

Roy
 
Years ago I bought four pairs of pliers made in and marked USSR, at 50p each I was not expecting much, as standard pliers were about £3. I think they were made from the last of the German Panzer's, their as hard as hell, never notched, still parallel, and will see me out, they laugh at stainless wire. Glad I didn't lash out on a pair of Lindstom's!

G
 

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