Polishing Microcrystalline Wax

[Duncan A]

For something so simple as waxing and polishing, this may sound like a daft question but I'll ask anyway!
I use Chestnut microcrystalline wax as a topcoat on most of my turning projects, using a polishing brush after letting the wax dry for 10 to 15 minutes. The wax is usually applied over oil which has had the excess wiped off 10 minutes after application, and then left to dry for 5 or more hours.

Usually I'm happy with the shine and surface finish, but occasionally get blemishes (scratches and other marks) which, today, led me to re-read the instructions on the tin, and now I'm not at all sure as to exactly how I should be proceeding.

On the tin it says" apply sparingly...and spread in a thin film..LEAVE FOR UP TO 20 MINUTES (my caps) before buffing to a deep shine..."
BUT Many retailer websites say "ALLOW TO DRY and buff to a high shine".
SO I think I'm buffing too soon, before the wax hardens.

Can anyone shed light on this and confirm whether I should wait for the wax to dry completely before buffing?

Does the wax dry in about 20 minutes and then harden over the next hours or days?
Can it be left too long before polishing?
If so, does this mean that I can buff again immediately to remove the blemishes but cannot do so much later after the hardening process has completed?

In other words, instead of just buffing again the next day and hoping to get a reasonable finish, should I really be stripping the wax off and starting again?

Any words of wisdom gratefully received.

Duncan

 

[CHJ]

I suggest your problem is trying to polish with wax over an oiled surface where the oil has not had time to polymerise, days?

If using soft cotton machine driven buffing mops I often polish as soon as I can't feel any excessive tackiness, and it comes up straight away.
When demonstrating there is not enough time to wait 20 mins after application but the result are still fine, time for solvents to disperse is a variable associated with temperature, local humidity and the amount you apply.

I also suggest that your scratches are from the brush damaging the oiled surface that has not hardened.

 

[CHJ]

I've just checked the exif files for some of my images in this project:-

But this was on a hard sealer surface, not an oiled surface that has not formed a firm skin and could still behave like an un evaporated solvent.

22-01 14:33 to 15:04 reverse and finish base.

set up buffing mandrel/mops.

22-01 15:10 to 15:20 Piece buffed inside and out, coarse, fine abrade, apply microcrystalline and buff. 10 mins. total.

22-01 15:54 lathe put to bed and final images had been taken.

 

[Duncan A]

I suggest your problem is trying to polish with wax over an oiled surface where the oil has not had time to polymerise, days?

If using soft cotton machine driven buffing mops I often polish as soon as I can't feel any excessive tackiness, and it comes up straight away.
When demonstrating there is not enough time to wait 20 mins after application but the result are still fine, time for solvents to disperse is a variable associated with temperature, local humidity and the amount you apply.

I also suggest that your scratches are from the brush damaging the oiled surface that has not hardened.

Thanks Chas, that makes a lot of sense as some of these blemishes appear on surfaces that I thought I'd got as close to perfect as possible. In future I'll wait for days as you suggest, or use something other than oil to colour the wood and emphasise the grain pattern.

None of it is even close to the work that you turn out though!

Duncan

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Duncan...try cellulose sanding sealer as the first coat you apply after finishing sanding. Stop the lathe and apply it quickly but stationary. It does two very useful things:

seals the pores making the surface more flat. Fills areas that would otherwise absorb the polish causing uneven finish appearance. But it does this FAST so very little mucking about. I now tend to apply and then burnish the spinning wood with shavings which absolutely guarantees its dry before you apply the polish. It makes the grain pop in a very similar way to oil although it is a more shiny finish in its own right.

Then you're ready to polish. I tend to apply polish (I also use MC wax)...make a cuppa...buff. That sort of time scale ie 10-20 mins. If it doesn't give the lustre I want I'll apply a second coat and leave it longer before buffing.

If you want a serious shine you need a buffing wheel system which is another level altogether.

 

[CHJ]

Duncan, have a read of the Buffing Guides on my site (Aids).
Regarding using oils particularly the first page on KimG's coloured work leaflet, he uses oils far more than I do.

I know you are not using mechanical buffing but the same technique regarding having a hard skin to apply the wax to still applies else it's a waste of elbow grease.

 

[Duncan A]

Bob - Thanks for your advice, very useful.

I've been using the oil to add warmth to woods and highlight the grain better before waxing, but if sanding sealer can do the same job and quicker, then I'll give it a go - I've got stacks of the stuff anyway.
As for the buffing - oh dear, more expense. I considered getting the Chestnut buffing kit a few days ago, but shied away due to cost, because I'd have needed the kit itself for external surfaces plus 3 x domed brushes for internal.
Making a cuppa as part of the process seems like a good idea though!

BTW, referring to your other thread, if you want to try out a Patriot chuck (with or without extender) on a 3520B, you're very welcome to come up to Northampton for the day.

Chas - Those buffing guides are excellent, and with some useful tips for NE bowls one of which I hope to have a go at soon. I'm going to have to work through them carefully and "wing it" a lot less - and consider some buffing mops. I haven't paid too much attention to finishing in the past as my turning skills are still very much in the beginnner's phase, but it seems I'll just have to get stuck and move on from a polishing brush on the lathe or in a drill.

Thanks again for your help gents

Duncan

 

[CHJ]

Duncan, doesn't matter what your turning skill levels are or which method of finishing you use, if you finish it to the best of your ability with no visible blemishes then folks have got to acknowledge that skill if nothing else.

Not all pieces are best presented with a high gloss, but one thing buffing does for the majority of pieces is remove all those niggling little blemishes far more rapidly than you can do by hand, some may call it a lazy mans finishing, I'm happy to be lazy.

 

[Ale]

@ Duncan A

Hi Duncan,
My name is Ale. I`m from Switzerland and therefore not a native English speaker. I made a longboard and sealed it so many times with Chestnut Tungoil but I never got a right surface. Some part of the board got shiny like they are varnished with lacqueur but others still looked like not sealed. I made so many coats - I do not remember how many - app. 15.
Then I called Chestnut and explained my problem. They said I can use Chestnut Microcristaline Wax over the Tung Oil. So I let the last coat of Tungoil dry and after one month I applied the Microcristaline Wax and buffed it after 10 min. with the Chestnut Safty Cloth. A few parts of the wood were shiny but other parts not. The parts which were a little bit shiny are not really dark. What I would like to say is that the wood color is not really comming out - it doesn`t looks like wet. It`s hard to explain.
I tried the same procedure with 2min. 5min. 20min.- nothing - then I called Chestnut again - they said I have to apply just a little bit. Okay I tried again and put as less as possible on the board. Still the same. Then I thought I need a buffing system to solve the problem. I orderd the Buffing Wheel C for the drilling machine and tried it today again. After 20min. I buffed it and it was even worse - just matte finish.
So I don`t know what I am going to do now to solve the problem. If anybody knows which product I can use to get a high gloss finish please let me know.

 

[CHJ]

My name is Ale. I`m from Switzerland and therefore not a native English speaker. I made a longboard and sealed it so many times with Chestnut Tungoil but I never got a right surface. Some part of the board got shiny like they are varnished with lacqueur but others still looked like not sealed. I made so many coats - I do not remember how many - app. 15..

Ale, what wood did you use for the Longboard, I presume it's a Plywood form.

Do you use the same finish on your Racquets?

It sounds as if the oil is soaking in some areas more than others, and more to the point not polymerising (curing) all over for some reason.

I would have expected three coats to be more than enough given 12 to 24 hours between coats.

Did you wipe off surplus oil after five minutes or so with each coat? especially the first.

Hard Wax Oil would have been my choice for the Longboard but that's of no help now.

 

[Ale]

Thanks Chas for your answer.

"Ale, what wood did you use for the Longboard, I presume it's a Plywood form."
The longboard looks like the racquets. It`s hardwood: walnut, maple, wenge.

"Do you use the same finish on your Racquets?"
For the Racquets I used alkyd resin varnish. It`s very good because the one I use is elastic but still with a very hard surface.

"It sounds as if the oil is soaking in some areas more than others, and more to the point not polymerising (curing) all over for some reason. I would have expected three coats to be more than enough given 12 to 24 hours between coats. Did you wipe off surplus oil after five minutes or so with each coat? especially the first."
I alway waited at least one week beetween the next coat of Chestnut Tung Oil. And yes I wiped off the surplus oil. When I saw after more than 5 coats that I get no layer I started to change the wipe off time - means I wiped it off after 20min., 1 hour, several hours....

"Hard Wax Oil would have been my choice for the Longboard but that's of no help now."
Yes, would have been also a good choice. But I wanted to try it with tung oil so that I can use it in the future also for the Racquets.

Now my problem is the Chestnut Microcristaline Wax that makes no glossy shiny surface. I don`t know if the differnce of the matte spots and the shiny spots are visible on a photo but I will try to make a photo and will post it tomorrow.

 

[Ale]

I had a lot to do yesterday but now here the photo of the waxed board.
I buffed it again today and now it is matte matte and no shine anymore. Can I go over the wax with Carnauba Wax?

 

[Terry Smart]

Hi Ale

We've spoken on the phone, I'm sorry to see this is still not going as you want.

Can you tell me please what (if anything) you did to the final coat of Tung Oil before applying the wax? I'd hope that the longboard was sanded so that the finish was uniform across it completely.

Thanks

Terry

 

[Ale]

Hi Terry,
Yes, we did! I`m still on it - never giving up ;-) Thanks for taking time again to support me. Yes, I sanded with 1000er. What can I do next?
Btw I already bought the Chestnut Finishing Oil to try this after this board is finished. I just need a glossy surface.
Thanks.

 

[Ale]

I sanded it again and waxed it. Waited 20min. and was very careful with buffing it. It is a little bit better now. This is now a few days ago but it still leaves horrible fingerprints when I touch it. Will this stay like this or does it takes a while `till the wax is completely dry?

 

[CHJ]

I sanded it again and waxed it. Waited 20min. and was very careful with buffing it. It is a little bit better now. This is now a few days ago but it still leaves horrible fingerprints when I touch it. Will this stay like this or does it takes a while `till the wax is completely dry?

I suspect that the underlying finish is what is causing the handling marks, In my experience Microcrystalline wax itself rarely shows any handling marks. But like any wax finish required to form a high gloss it must be applied to a none absorbent surface, any solvents or oils that have not polymerised and formed a hard skin surface that can mix with it will affect the ability to form a glazed surface.

 

[Terry Smart]

Hi Ale

I'm with Chas on this, I suspect it's the underlying coats of Tung Oil throwing this askew.
Could we try an experiment? Would you be able to prepare and finish some timber (an offcut maybe) with the Finishing Oil, allow a couple of days to dry then apply the Microcrystalline Wax (if you think it needs it) and see what happens?
If you get the finish we expect we can at least eliminate a problem with the wax or application and move forward from there.

Thanks

 

[Ale]

@Chas
I waited weeks before I applied the wax on the tung oil surface. I have sanded the surface with 1000er before applying the wax. This time it worked (sanded with 2000er) that I got a shiny surface a little bit like glas but it is still a little bit dull. I think it could be that it is not buffed right. I buffed it by hand because when I use the buffing pad from Chestnut with the drilling machine it gets matte (I think it is because I do not handle it right). Probably I should buy a buffing machine.
Do you know if microcristaline wax can be appliyed in liquid form (heating it)?
Do you know how long it normally takes that wax is completly dry (in days or weeks please)?

@Terry
I started 4 days ago with the experiment with the Finishing Oil on a piece of cherry. (I must admit that I did not sanded the cherry wood piece as I should). I just applied the 4th layer. I will add more layers - I think 2 - 4 more layers. The Finishing Oil is very thin.
I have not shaked the can - is that ok?
What do you mean by waiting a couple of days before applying the wax? 3 days or more?

 

[CHJ]

It is no good applying high melting point wax to a sanded (softer) wood surface that is not sealed with a hard film.

It may well be OK with a hard dense wood anything that has any significant absorbent properties is unlikely to provide a satisfactory gloss.

If you look at this thread of finishing some Walnut you will see the gloss achieved in 8 minutes with Canauba wax, I would have expected Microcrystalline wax to have given me as good if not greater gloss if I had used it as I regularly do.

But you will note it is on sealed hard surface wood not oil soaked.

 

[Ale]

Thanks for the answer. Yes it looks like this walnut bowl. But only from far away.
When I apply the microcristaline wax with a cloth there are still stripes of the applied wax visible. When I go over this part right again to smoothen the stripes then sometimes it gets first shiny and afterwards matte and will not be shiny again after buffing it after 20min. That`s why I asked if it can be melted before applying. Because this time I really applied it carefully without going over the parts I already applied the wax and there are still some stripes visible . The board is 110 x 23.5cm (only solid hardwood: walnut, wenge, maple). I need a buffing machine!

How long does it takes `till the wax is completly dry?
Would it be possible to go over the wax with beeswax or carnauba wax so that bought items can be restored by the customer itself?