Planing the face of a board

[bobscarle]

I am reasonably happy with both my Stanley number 4 and my Groz number 5 when I plane the edge of a board. OK, I still need to practice and very rarely get it right first time, but I am improving. The problem comes when I have glued up boards to make, for example, a top and I need to plane this flat. Most of the time the plane just slides over the surface without taking a shaving, other times it digs in gouging the surface. It seems to be better planing with the grain, as you would expect. The problem then comes when planing the joint between two boards where the grain could be running in different directions.

I am not sure if the problem lies with me (more than likely), with the planes (possibly) or with the sharpening. Should I be looking to have the grain running in the same direction for each board in a glue up? This is not something that I look for at the moment but maybe I could. Do better planes with really sharp blades cut with and against the grain equally as well?

I am planning a trip to Axminster this weekend and a Clifton or an LN number 4 may just creep onto the shopping list (especially as its my birthday).

I would be very interested in hearing anybodys thoughts on this.

Bob

 

[George_N]

Have a look at Engineer One's thread at the bottom of the page.

 

[tnimble]

I have / had the same difficulty as you describe. I found out that the sharper the blade is the less change of just sliding over the boards you have. But still this is mostly sliding or when setting the blade to protrude more you get shaving but at the risk of suddenly digging into the wood. When holding the plane more diagonal when planing helps also going cross grain prevents just sliding over the boards. But at risk of a very rough finisch.

 

[engineer one]

well from my recent experience, and the name check, i would suggest that you go to a much longer plane. at least a number 6. or try the bu version of it say a ln62.

basically what you are describing is that the plane because of its shortness is being moved by the ridges and dropping into the hollows.

a longer or jack plane will cut down the ridges, then help with the hollows.

frankly the interesting thing is that the longer planes are not much more expensive than the short ones.

paul :wink:

 

[tnimble]

Have a look at Engineer One's thread at the bottom of the page.

You probably mean this thread I guess?

 

[tnimble]

well from my recent experience, and the name check, i would suggest that you go to a much longer plane. at least a number 6. or try the bu version of it say a ln62.

basically what you are describing is that the plane because of its shortness is being moved by the ridges and dropping into the hollows.

a longer or jack plane will cut down the ridges, then help with the hollows.

frankly the interesting thing is that the longer planes are not much more expensive than the short ones.

paul :wink:

I haven't got the oppertunity yet to give my no 8 a good try. Buy with the no 4 the plane made a few shavings and then started sliding over the boards as if you planed down to a certain radius of the high and low spots the plane starts to follow them.

 

[engineer one]

infamy they've got it infor me :lol:
with apologies to the carry on team :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[engineer one]

i have to say also that having done both things in the last weeks
planing down a largish panel that had been band sawn, and now a jointed piece. the band sawnpanel was easier to deal with in the first place,
because it was easier to see the problems.

however both jobs require a long plane.

the 4 is not called a smoother for nothing.

had i now done it myself i would not believe it. so it is a question of going back to basics.

i might remind you all that i have said before that in my past life i used to show people how to use a file on metal, and we always found the longer ones made it easier to get a horizontal surface. this is because the file shows by its position whether it is flat or not.

i would now propose that a long plane offers the same benefits.

as an aside, just finished a book about bomber command in the second world war. one of the fitters mentioned his training which involved filing down a block of metal, with no other tools but the files. reminds me of my training too. only our block was a little smaller :?

paul :wink:

 

[JesseM]

I'll agree with the use of the longer plane first. But here are some other things to look for too.

- Planing in the wrong direction. Try the other direction. I have seen this produce tearout to digging in.

- Dull blade with too large of a blade projection. The real problem is the blade is dull. I think heavier planes tend to dampen this effect. This is also dependent on the wood. I can plane forever in pine it seems with a heavy plane even with a dull blade. Try that in bubinga and you get exactly the effect you are seeing. Think planing a brick versus planing butter.

- Locate the high and low spots. When gluing up panels if the panel's edges are not square it may produce cup or if the panels are already flat a V. If your plane is riding over the bottom of this V its not gonna touch wood. You have treat this the same way you would cupping in the board. I'm sure there's some articles around. I had this happen to me with a 5/4 cherry breadboard, and it wasn't till I took a straight edge across the grain that I realized it, and then thought about why it happened. Once you put the clamps on the boards, if they are not 90 degrees to one another that pressure will the force the 2 faces together and produce whatever angle it is. I think the second of David Charlesworth's books has a lot of info on gluing up panels.

Hope this helps!

 

[Paul Chapman]

I am not sure if the problem lies with me (more than likely), with the planes (possibly) or with the sharpening. Should I be looking to have the grain running in the same direction for each board in a glue up? This is not something that I look for at the moment but maybe I could.

Hi Bob, when you are working on a piece of wood, I think it's important to mark not only the face side and face edge, but also other useful information such as grain direction. This will save you a lot of problems later on. On some pieces, it's obvious which way the grain is running but on others it can be quite deceptive. And then there are pieces in which the grain runs in several directions.

I scribble all over my workpieces with a soft pencil (2B or softer so as not to dent the wood) and include various bits of information.

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For example , on this pile of wood I've marked which board the pieces came from, which way up they were and which direction the grain is going. I've also written on some of them so that I know whether they are in wind or not.

I find all this useful if I have to leave the workpieces for a couple of weeks and come back to them, and also when it comes to deciding which piece is to go where, and to glueing up so that I can keep the grain running the same way and prevent problems with tear-out when cleaning up the surfaces.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bobscarle]

Thank you all for your responses. I have just come back in after frightening several pieces of wood. The idea of marking the grain direction is good and something that I will certainly do in future.

I have been planing a face using a jack plane (its the longest plane I have) and it certainly seems to work better than the smoother. But, (there's always a "but"), only when I plane in the right direction. Thats fine until you get a piece where the grain reverses.

The other thing I did was to sharpen the blade. This made a big difference with control and left a lovely finish when planing with the grain, but not against it. Is this something you get when you part with loads of money for a posh plane? I have read that you can get a better edge on a blade from, say, an LN.

OK. Back out into the shed now. The best thing, I think at the moment is practice.

Bob

 

[engineer one]

bob, well done, at some stage though the only real way to deal with grain reversal is i think to use a scraper plane.

however, why not try using the plane at an angle,it certainly seems to help

but you are right that the ln/lv or clifton blades do seem to hold an edge better for longer.

paul :wink:

 

[JesseM]

The other thing I did was to sharpen the blade. This made a big difference with control and left a lovely finish when planing with the grain, but not against it. Is this something you get when you part with loads of money for a posh plane? I have read that you can get a better edge on a blade from, say, an LN.
Bob

Planes with a higher angle of attack do not care about grain orientation, but the trade off is that they are harder to push. The LN or LV bevel up planes allow this through the means of just putting a steeper angle on the blade. The BD planes achieve this through steeper beds. LN sells auxillary beds for some of its planes. My LN BU jack and LV BU jointer have blades that are honed at 47 degrees which puts the angle of attack at somewhere near 60. I never see tear out at that angle. You may not need something so high for most hardwoods.

 

[mr]

bob, well done, at some stage though the only real way to deal with grain reversal is i think to use a scraper plane.

however, why not try using the plane at an angle,it certainly seems to help
paul :wink:

Which would be an oddity because the point of a scraper plane is that the angle of attack or what DC refers to as effective pitch is raised whereas by skewing the plane you are lowering the pitch. Are you sure that it's not just a case of finding that the skewed plane is easier to push and that your sharpness and mouth setting are set up to help avoid tearout?

With ref to Bobs original question about flattening a glued up panel I've found that the best way is a long plane diagonally across the grain, sometimes even at 90 degrees to the grain. working along the panel from one end and then back the other direction, before finally planing with the grain to remove any marks from the diagonal planing. Obviously you're not going to be able to plane "steps" between boards out very easily but as long as your original thicknessing and glue up went ok you should be alright.


Cheers Mike

 

[engineer one]

well mike i am unsure, rather like others which is why we try all different means of attack don't we??

would that it were easy, back to the joy of metalwork at least metal doesn't have any grain :twisted: :roll:

i think the thing is that the scraper plane only takes avery small shaving, if set properly, and you tend not to move it straight lines.

paul :wink:

 

[mr]

If it was easy it wouldn't be any fun now would it
A skewed attack certainly makes pushing easier, but I've found I still get some fairly horrific tearout that way. I do get less with my jointer than with my jack, which may be a combination of things. Its heavier, its got more momentum in the cut as a result. It has a heavier duty blade than my jack and as mentioned I use it across the grain to start and then when planing with the grain it's set for a very fine cut. The Jack on the other hand possibly gets used more so the blade is duller perhaps. The jack has an adjustable mouth and when set to fine this can eliminate tearout completely especially with a freshly sharpened blade. So I think it's a combination of things depending on what tools you have to hand and so on.
Cheers Mike

 

[engineer one]

you are right mike, and it is the start of the slope, but what it actually says is that we need different planes for different jobs.

so do i need two no 7's or 8's with different forms and bevels??? :twisted:

paul :wink:

 

[DaveL]

back to the joy of metalwork at least metal doesn't have any grain :twisted: :roll:

Hum, wrought iron anyone? :twisted: :roll: :wink:

 

[engineer one]

yea, and what about japanese and damascene metal too

i know i know :lol: :roll:

anyway who works proper wrought iron with a file :?

paul :wink:

 

[Paul Chapman]

So I think it's a combination of things depending on what tools you have to hand and so on.

I'm sure you are right, Mike. A couple of interesting things I've read and seen recently. The first was David Charlesworth's article in Furniture & Cabinet Making, May 2007 issue, about "effective pitch" of a plane blade and honing back bevels on a blade. David seems to favour this nowadays rather than using a cabinet scraper for difficult timbers and avoiding tear-out. Certainly worth a read.

The second was a DVD on planing by Jim Kingshott. He very much favours working through various types of plane when preparing a board - starting with a wooden jack, taking deep cuts. Then (in his case) moving on to a Bailey or Bedrock style plane set to take a finer cut. Then on to a Norris set to take whisper-thin shavings for a final finish. I like this approach and have arrived at it myself now after much trial and error, starting with a scrub, then a more finely set curved blade then finishing off with my Cliftons set very fine with a more-or-less straight blade.

I think one of the problems faced by beginners is that they are always looking for the perfect plane when there isn't one. You need a range of planes (not necessarily expensive ones) set up to do particular stages of a job. That way the job tends to be quicker and easier and more likely to end in a successful result.

All very interesting stuff. But I think it's essential to try things out for yourself to see what works and what doesn't.

Cheers :wink:

Paul