Planing difficulties with rippled sycamore

[MIGNAL]

Well I use a lot of figured Maple. . . . and I'm also a luthier. There is no magic solution, other than an extremely sharp blade. Quite often I plane straight across the grain, 90 degrees across. I use a bevel down plane, no back bevel or high angle. I finish with a very sharp scraper. Tear out is non existent, no need for any grain filler or indeed huge numbers of varnish coats. You have to know how to sharpen a scraper and how to 'set' it. Think taking a plane blade to a fine grit, think setting the cut to a very fine shaving. You get the idea.

 

[PAC1]

The last time I used rippled sycamore I fitted new blades in the planer and planned 0.1mm passes I still ended up with some tear out but not much and it was easily scrapped and sanded out. I am a fan of spraying the surface with water but did not do so last time. The answer is very sharp blades, a very cautious approach and a lot of luck as you will not avoid some tear out.

 

[Austinisgreat]

Thanks for the links Peter, I have read your article before whilst researching planer/thicknessers in general. Very interesting. Whether I feel confident enough to attempt to hone a ten degree front bevel on the planer knives in situ, I'm really not sure, but will have a think.

I have yet to try hand-planing with my recently-applied 20 degree back bevel, hopefully I will be able to have a go later today.

I made a guitar neck last year out of flame maple, and whilst expecting similar "issues", had none at all. However shaping was done with rasps and scrapers, no planes involved, prior to sanding.

When I get around to the next guitar project I'll post pics. I am planning on just applying a 1/4" or so flat sycamore top to the mahogany body so won't be attempting to bend over an arm contour - that is way beyond my skillset!

Thanks again for all the really helpful responses fellas.

Cheers

Andrew

 

[Kalimna]

Andrew - that's a nice looking neck, may I ask where you sourced the wood from?

Cheers,
Adam

 

[Austinisgreat]

Andrew - that's a nice looking neck, may I ask where you sourced the wood from?

Cheers,
Adam

Adam,

I think I bought that flamed maple neck blank from Tonetech Luthier Supplies near Manchester. IIRC it was about 40 quid and I was pleasantly surprised how "flamey" it came out. It looked pretty plain before shaping.

Cheers

Andrew

 

[bugbear]

I'm a little sceptical that luthiers have a magic solution to tear out. I suspect that because they're making smaller, higher value items they're prepared to sink more effort into finishing each square foot of their products than an equivalent furniture maker. Consequently they'll tolerate some micro tear out (that slight and patchy "fuzziness" which is almost inevitable on rippled sycamore) knowing that it will be dealt with at the grain filling stage. Fifty or a hundred padded on coats of shellac together with the attendant pumice treatment, or multiple rubbed out coats of varnish, will render most tear out undetectable to touch or eye. But that's hardly a realistic finishing regime for a double wardrobe!

Resharpening to the ultra-polished-max after every 20 square inches of planing is also doable on a small item, but would get mighty old, mighty fast on a double wardrobe.

BugBear

 

[Mr T]

Peter said:

This is a short video of me using the Hammer Spiral cutter block on some demanding Quilted Maple to great effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw

I have the Hammer with spiral cutter block. I got it mainly because it is so quiet in a teaching situation. It cuts nicely too, if you set the cutters up correctly.

If the nieghbours complain about the noise from your workshop it may be worth considering one!

Chris

 

[sploo]

And impressive planing technique as well!

Very useful and informative thread, and indeed good to see/learn.

I do have to ask though...

I have the Hammer with spiral cutter block.

...how much does one of those cost to us mere mortals?

Not that I currently have the space, but I do dream one day of having a proper pair of large planer and thicknesser machines.

 

[katellwood]

If you do not want to grind a back bevel on a plane iron (possibly you only have the one) I have flipped the iron over on the odd occasion when away from the workshop. assuming the iron was ground to 25 degrees and honed to 30 degrees with common pitch this gives you a combined angle of 85 degrees. the only draw back is that the back iron may not sit right

try it, it works

 

[Austinisgreat]

Hi Guys,

Sorry its taken so long to report back. Following all the advice offered:

Cant afford a Felder / Hammer machine OR the spiral cutterblock - But if I win the Lotto its the way to go!

Not enough skill to mess with my P/T knives but may well ask someone to make a set.

So I did hone an exaggerated back bevel on my regular bevel down plane iron in my regular Stanley Bailey No.5 bench plane, AND with some practice, achieved a very acceptable result. I also did the edges (board only about 10mm thick) with the attendant cross-grain and good results again. Poor pic from mob phone attached.

So huge thanks to all contributors, Esp Mister Custard who gave a long and detailed list of suggestions. And following your advice I then put a very slight hook on a cabinet scraper and that also worked really well.

I now have a small piece of wood which is soooo smooth I might just keep it with me and stroke it in between looking at it! :lol:

Hope the thread was helpful to others also. I certainly learnt a lot. Power to the forum. (hammer)

Cheers

Andrew

 

[Mr T]

Sploo said

I do have to ask though...

Mr T wrote:
I have the Hammer with spiral cutter block.

...how much does one of those cost to us mere mortals?

I've only just spotted Sploo's question hence the delay in replying. I paid £2987( including the very useful digital dial). That's compared to an un-discounted price of about £2500 for a standard a3-31. I think that's worth it to maintain my sanity in a shared workshop. I hardly need to have ear defenders on when a colleague or student is machining on the new machine. Plus if gives a great finish.

Chris

 

[sploo]

Sploo said

I do have to ask though...

Mr T wrote:
I have the Hammer with spiral cutter block.

...how much does one of those cost to us mere mortals?

I've only just spotted Sploo's question hence the delay in replying. I paid £2987( including the very useful digital dial). That's compared to an un-discounted price of about £2500 for a standard a3-31. I think that's worth it to maintain my sanity in a shared workshop. I hardly need to have ear defenders on when a colleague or student is machining on the new machine. Plus if gives a great finish.

Chris

Not cheap at all, but I do understand it's very good. In a commercial environment time is money - so if the finish is really good then that time saving must add up.

If I had the floor space I would be eyeing the Axminster AT107PT with a spiral head. Though it looks as though the AT129PT would be comparable to the A3-31, and that'd be £2k with a spiral head, so (assuming the Hammer is better built) it's not crazy money in comparison.

 

[custard]

If I had the floor space I would be eyeing the Axminster AT107PT with a spiral head. Though it looks as though the AT129PT would be comparable to the A3-31, and that'd be £2k with a spiral head, so (assuming the Hammer is better built) it's not crazy money in comparison.

I'm not sure the two spiral heads are directly comparable. I could have this wrong but I think the Felder/Hammer spiral heads are somehow skewed so each individual knife is delivering a slicing cut, where as with other spiral heads the individual knives present full edge on, so there isn't the same advantage. The story I heard was that Felder were researching into spindle moulder block designs and stumbled across this specific configuration which they patented and transferred to planer blocks. Certainly when I've used the normal spiral block on a spindle moulder you're left with witness lines and there's little or no tear out advantage, unsurprisingly really as it's just a regular straight knife that's been broken up into segments.

Incidentally, I saw the Felder spiral block in action recently in a nearby furniture maker's workshop. It took heavily burred timbers to almost finish ready (just needed a light pass with an orbital sander). If I had that I'd be very tempted to sell my drum sander and free up some space. You don't get that many big leaps forward in woodworking, but if not a "big leap" this is at least a "sizeable step"!

 

[sploo]

If I had the floor space I would be eyeing the Axminster AT107PT with a spiral head. Though it looks as though the AT129PT would be comparable to the A3-31, and that'd be £2k with a spiral head, so (assuming the Hammer is better built) it's not crazy money in comparison.

I'm not sure the two spiral heads are directly comparable. I could have this wrong but I think the Felder/Hammer spiral heads are somehow skewed so each individual knife is delivering a slicing cut, where as with other spiral heads the individual knives present full edge on, so there isn't the same advantage. The story I heard was that Felder were researching into spindle moulder block designs and stumbled across this specific configuration which they patented and transferred to planer blocks. Certainly when I've used the normal spiral block on a spindle moulder you're left with witness lines and there's little or no tear out advantage, unsurprisingly really as it's just a regular straight knife that's been broken up into segments.

Incidentally, I saw the Felder spiral block in action recently in a nearby furniture maker's workshop. It took heavily burred timbers to almost finish ready (just needed a light pass with an orbital sander). If I had that I'd be very tempted to sell my drum sander and free up some space. You don't get that many big leaps forward in woodworking, but if not a "big leap" this is at least a "sizeable step"!

Interesting. By 'comparable' I was meaning in cutting width, but I didn't spot the significance in the cutter difference. Another positive for the Hammer I guess.

Oh for the space for big cast iron machinery...

 

[AJB Temple]

Excellent thread. The fashion in recent years (sparked by Paul Reed Smith I think) for very figured guitar tops and fancy instrument finishes does make life harder. I am starting to think they can look a bit bling. I find that with sycamore, birds eye maple and various tapered tops with burr content, you are inevitably stuck with a lot of hand scraping and finishing. Luckily, unless making acoustic instruments, the sizes are not that large compared to furniture.

Nice job with your board Austin.