Plane mouth fettling

[SteveB43]

I recently bought a '60's Stanley No 3 of the bay, and did a restoration too.
As GS did, I left my handles bare with a weeks worth of boiled linseed oil treatment (A splash a day for a week..), sanded the sole & sides to flatten and clean up, then for blade and chipbreaker, went with a new Ray Iles blade, which disappointingly wasn't ground at 25 deg, so throwing my Veritas honing guide as it was hitting the top of the bevel when honing. ( I reground on a coarse diamond stone to 25 until I got a burr) and fitted a Clifton two piece stay set cap.
It required some further finessing, around the mouth needed a file to allow the wider blade through and using David C's pointer, of a bevel at the front of the month.
(Didnt know you are supposed to use a metal file one way only, not back and forth as that destroy's the teeth :roll: )

Biggest problem though was fitting a new Y lever, the Stanley holes are just a shade less than 3mm, the new Y lever holding rod (yoke?) was too big to fit these as it was approx 4mm. I knew if I drilled the holes in the frog out completely to 4mm, the yoke would fit, but not stay in as the taper had been removed. What worked was drilling slowly and fractionally until there was just enough 'squeeze' on the left hand hole to hold the tapered yoke in place, but there's not a lot of leeway, I probably have 0.5mm or so of original diameter hole left that's holding the yoke.
It works fine and I got away with it, but what is best practice here when fitting a new yoke?, all suggestions gratefully received!

Cheers
Steve B,

 

[G S Haydon]

Ok, didn't know that.

But it doesn't matter. A tight mouth only helps against tearout when it is supertight, like barely-passing-the-shaving-tight. And when you use the chipbreaker to control tearout you don't need such a tight mouth.

Then why not advance the frog and set the chip breaker tight? I have not yet found the need use the casting as extra support but if you are taking really heavy cuts then it could be worth a look I guess.

 

[Corneel]

You're free to do what you want! But combining a tight mouth and a close set chipbreaker is a good way to get a clogging plane. If you tune everything very carefully you might get away with it, but I wasn't so happy in my #4. And I can plane everything from my woodpile in every which way with the chipbreaker set very close to the edge and an open mouth.

 

[G S Haydon]

As are you Corneel, with my blessing . I do totally agree with the close chipbreaker.

 

[David C]

Corneel,
A tight mouth and a close set c/b will only cause choking if the c/b (or front of throat) are badly shaped. I have a 1970 Stanley where both can be set to 0.004".

The choking myth is unfortunately widespread.

Steve,
Changing yokes should be straightforward. Clifton make two styles with differing pin diameters. One for Stanley and Record and one for Clifton.
Matthew at Workshop Heaven Sells both and understands the issues.
(Failing that a set of cheap 0.1mm twist drills can be surprisingly useful).

I wrote about the yoke problem in F&C issue 200, Winter 2012.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[Corneel]

The choking myth is unfortunately widespread.

Please explain, why do you want to control tearout with both the chipbreaker and a tight mouth?

In my view of the world it's only logical to pull the blade back into its most stable position when I can succesfully control tearout with just the chipbreaker. At te same time eliminating any potential chocking issues. Especially because I like to add a small but steep microbevel to the end of the chipbreaker like Kato demonstrates to be so effective.

 

[SteveB43]

Hi David,
THanks for the advice re yokes, I must have been trying to fit a Record pin into my Stanley..I bought the new parts from Matthew at WH, so I'll give him a shout..
for drill bits, is that 0.1mm graduated?
Cheers!


Incidentally, on my refurbished No3, I set the newly honed and microbeveled plane blade and chipbreaker up with about a hairs gap between. The shavings were rough (tearing type noise when planing) so I set a little further back, 1.0mm say, and Perfect...
Could it have been the chipbreaker interfering with shavings flow out of the mouth?

 

[Corneel]

When you have the chipbreaker too close to the edge (yes that's possible too) you often see wrinkley shavings. No idea what noise it makes though. In the perfect position the chipbreaker produces very straight shavings. When you set the chipbreaker 1mm from the edge, it doesn't do anything to the shaving. Ideally for a smoother it should be about 0.2 to 0.3 mm from the edge, but don't take that number as gospel, try it out for yourself. In nice even straight grained wood you really don't need the chipbreaker to do anything. It's on curly, knotty or reversing grain when it is usefull to prevent tearout.

BTW make sure the chipbreaker is very precisley mated to the back of the blade with absolutely no gap between them. Shavings will find their way in between and a clogging mess is guaranteed.

 

[Racers]

Hi,

I plained a piece of burr silver birch and the only way to get tear out free surface was to set the chip breaker extremely close and then the plane produced straight wrinkly shavings.
I tried my scraper plane but it the wood was far to soft.

Pete

 

[David C]

Corneel,

I was not making any value judgement about how to control tearout.

Just trying to destroy the "tight mouth and close set chipbreaker cause choking" myth.

Best wishes,
David

 

[Jacob]

......
Just trying to destroy the "tight mouth and close set chipbreaker cause choking" myth.

.....

If you are saying that it is possible to plane with a tight mouth then yes this is true - until you try to take a thicker shaving when it will probably choke.
Obvious really and certainly not a myth - an indestructible fact and a common experience.
Often the simplest cure for a choking plane, especially woodies with their deep throats, is to widen the mouth (and throat) a touch, or a lot if you are using it as a scrubber.

 

[Dangermouse]

Really Jacob, deep throats, wide mouths and scrubbers and this used to be such a nice forum!!!!!!! :tongue9: :-"

 

[Benchwayze]

I recently bought an old record no 4 of cheat bay with a view to doing a full resto and getting familiar with it. The only info I can't find is about the mouth. As it is the front and back edges have a slight bow. I can file these back true but will that leave the mouth too wide ?

It will also enable you to fit an 'after-market', thicker blade such as a Clifton from Workshop Heaven, or 'Pinnacle' as mentioned by Rob Cosman. Use a file with 'safe' edges btw; as I am sure you will know.

HTH

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I have a plane with a very nice sharp iron, a close set chip breaker and a very small mouth. I use it for finishing cuts in difficult wood. If I wish to plane easy timber quickly I use a different plane, set up differently. It's not difficult.

 

[Benchwayze]

I have a plane with a very nice sharp iron, a close set chip breaker and a very small mouth. I use it for finishing cuts in difficult wood. If I wish to plane easy timber quickly I use a different plane, set up differently. It's not difficult.

Absolutely. Although Jacob has lost me somewhere. If I'm working with a fine set plane, on contrary timber for instance, why would I suddenly need to take a thicker shaving? And if I did, then I'd pick up another plane.

Unless I missed something. :?

 

[David C]

Please do not invent and attribute rubbish to me, Jacob.

It must be obvious to the meanest intelligence, that mouth width, must be a smidge greater than the thickest shavings one wishes to take.

Still waiting with bated breath to hear how thick yours are? In both softwood and hardwood please.

David

 

[Jacob]

Please do not invent and attribute rubbish to me, Jacob.

It must be obvious to the meanest intelligence, that mouth width, must be a smidge greater than the thickest shavings one wishes to take.

Still waiting with bated breath to hear how thick yours are? In both softwood and hardwood please.

David

So what you are saying is what is known as a self evident truth or "naive truism" viz that
if
the mouth is set to allow fine shavings through
then
it will.
I think we could all agree with that, but it only states the obvious.

But it remains true (by definition) that if the mouth is too fine then it won't let shavings through, then if it is adjusted to be wide enough then it will.
Something tells me you won't understand this, but don't worry about it!

 

[G S Haydon]

I have a plane with a very nice sharp iron, a close set chip breaker and a very small mouth. I use it for finishing cuts in difficult wood. If I wish to plane easy timber quickly I use a different plane, set up differently. It's not difficult.

=D> Philip I could not agree more! I'm not a woodworker who needs lots of highly tuned tools (yet ). Having one plane set up really nicely and as refined as it can be seems a really wise idea. A #4 seems a logical choice too as it's normal role is to fine finish. Same goes for chisels really, one or two prepared to a high standard is much easier for me to maintain.

I think the next few images could amuse or confuse depending on your views. I have felt most comfortable using an oilstone on my private tools. Gave a couple of other things a try and they didn't sit quite right. For normal use a fine india stone seems quite adequate. However I wanted to go finer still on the #4. Without having access to a nice Charnley or Arkansas I decided to source my own

I broke a piece of a faulty Brazillian slate worktop with a sledge hammer

I honed with some 3 in 1. I tried lighter oil but it was too grippy. The slate polished out the scratches left by the fine india stone quite quickly. Standard blade used

I advanced the frog for a fine mouth. Very easy indeed to do this. It's like someone designed it that way :lol:

I took some trial cuts on some European Oak and measured them in mm. I had no clogging issues. The tight fitting chipbreaker with a polished face and a polished front mouth allowed shavings to pass easily and smoothly. As I couldn't get into the mouth with a file just yet it was just cleaned up with some wet & dry on a stick.

I even went for a heavy end grain cut too. Seemed to be OK

Took a variety of cuts in the Oak and I added some softwood too. No chocking, no clogging, no chatter.

I like the fact I have one highly tuned plane and I like a close mouth and tight chipbreaker too. Will I do it to all my planes, no. Will I keep this one highly tuned yes.

 

[Corneel]

Once I've seen a youtube video from a guy who made the mouth-chipbreaker area so tight, that he could literally lift up the entire plane, just pulling on the shaving still stuck in the mout. That looked like an impressive trick! (Sorry I can't find it anymore).

My #4 is more a jack of all trades plane. So that's probably why I don't like these super high tuning tricks. I just want a plane that I can grab and use with thinner or thicker shavings, whatever the task at hand, without going through a frog setting ritual.

When I first played around with the chipbreaker after seeing the Kato video I had the mouth of my #4 set at 0.2mm. Whatever I tried, it was very prone to clogging. Just moving the frog back a little bit made it a very predictable, universal performer.

 

[G S Haydon]

Once I've seen a youtube video from a guy who made the mouth-chipbreaker area so tight, that he could literally lift up the entire plane, just pulling on the shaving still stuck in the mout. That looked like an impressive trick! (Sorry I can't find it anymore).

My #4 is more a jack of all trades plane. So that's probably why I don't like these super high tuning tricks. I just want a plane that I can grab and use with thinner or thicker shavings, whatever the task at hand, without going through a frog setting ritual.

When I first played around with the chipbreaker after seeing the Kato video I had the mouth of my #4 set at 0.2mm. Whatever I tried, it was very prone to clogging. Just moving the frog back a little bit made it a very predictable, universal performer.

Corneel this really is the crux of the matter. What do we want from our tool? I use my job #4 just as you do. It's the only hand plane I carry around with me from job to job.

However I wanted a more dedicated tool for my private jobs. Something that was working at it's absolute best. Like I said I would not bother doing this on all my planes.