Petition for quality saw files...

[rafezetter]

Looking at the state of most of the files and how they're made, it almost smells like collusion to produce a junk product to promote the sale of power tools. I know that's a reach but if you look at it logically, with a well built file set and the saws your dad gave you, the saws will probably last you a lifetime, just like a decent hand plane.

This is pretty much what I said in my comment in the petition - you can't help but consider the implications of it. For example; Bahco make saws AND a sawblade + handle system to make changing blades easy - it's the mentality behind it "blunt saw? throw it and buy a new one... from us". But moving that along Japanese tenon saws are £30+, traditional tenon saws are around the same (although you can buy cheaper) any way you cut it (heh) £30+ a saw isn't chicken feed.

Has anyone possibly done a "average working time" of how long a new saw lasts before getting to a point where the blade is obviously dulling? I'd imagine with harder woods this could be shorter than some might realise (it's with an s you stupid american spellchecker) factor that with how often you need to do it, and it could be a number that makes shareholders wring their hands with glee.

 

[FenceFurniture]

It goes a bit further than that I think - buying a disposable saw means you have to accept whatever pitch, fleam, rake and set they decide you're going to use. You'll note I haven't mentioned slope - doubt if they know what it is let alone what it's for.

I'd be willing to bet that none of the expert filers ever use the same set of parameters as the throw away saws. That kind of saw takes way choices, and the ability to change your mind if you want to.

Now I do know that this is exactly what the manufacturers of throw away saws want - the smallest range possible to maximise profits, but perhaps they have missed a point (or 10) somewhere along the line.

 

[Reggie]

The japanese saw blades are cheap, £10 to replace but then we're getting into the realms of triggers broom, 'I've had this broom for 20 years, it's had 12 new heads and 37 new handles'.

I guess if you're jobbing on a site and it's all about time, time, time then stopping to sharpen a saw is probably going to cost you more money than a new saw, so I can see why the cheap saws are marketed as they are, it's a kind of just enough to do a job but to everyone else so far away from being able to do stuff for themselves.

Just a thought, when an £8 saw dies, is it worth taking all the teeth off and re cutting your own? Or are you going to go through more saw files than the cost of a saw?

 

[TobyC]

I'm going to throw this in here,... Even if you don't sharpen your own saws, the guy you send them to needs good files to sharpen your saws. And even if he uses a machine like a Foley or an Acme he has to have good files, because those machines use tapered saw files. The only good currently available saw files are NOS, and they are running out. There are more people sharpening their own saws now than there has been in a generation (or two!).

 

[Jelly]

Just a thought, when an £8 saw dies, is it worth taking all the teeth off and re cutting your own? Or are you going to go through more saw files than the cost of a saw?

Re-cutting teeth is not too bad (unless they're huge, like on a big rip-saw; then you need a fly-press with punch & die), I tend to use a three-square file to cut the teeth, then sharpen with a proper saw-file.

However, the issue is that a "proper" saw plate has been appropriately hardened, tempered and benched so that all the steel of the plate will effectively function as a cutting surface when filed... A hard-point saw on the other hand, is cut, shaped and sharpened as un-hardened steel and then just the teeth are hardened by electrical induction heating, so other than the extremely hard teeth, the rest of the plate is quite soft... Dead hard-point saws are reputed form a good source of card-scrapers when cut up with an angle-grinder, squared off and a burr turned.

 

[Reggie]

so they really are entirely disposable junk then On a happier note, the 2 rusty saws in the garage have wooden handles and brass screws holding it all together, I didn't measure the tpi but I did look at the level and they both look fairly reasonable to me, whatever the tpi is, one looks like it's roughly 2x the tpi of the chunkier looking one.

Both handles are in need of a finish coat of something but neither are cracked or missing any bits. 1 of them you can just about make out spear and jackson on the handle.

They both look like they have some pitted areas, I should really think about getting a plastic tub to chuck them in with some bicarb or if I feel brave enough I might go the electricity rust removal method. I've got a bench supply that will give me 12v @ 2-3A that I can use if necessary.

 

[marcros]

Out of interest, does anybody know what brand of file Pedder uses- he must sharpen as many saws as anybody on the forum?

 

[FenceFurniture]

Out of interest, does anybody know what brand of file Pedder uses- he must sharpen as many saws as anybody on the forum?

F.Dick Needles which are made by UMV/Glardon/Vallorbe. They are available from Dieter Schmid Fine Tools.
http://www.fine-tools.com/euroscha.htm
Scroll to the bottom. The other F.Dick files shown on that page are made in India, and photos of them featured in my previous posts (as did the needle file which is excellent quality).

He uses Cut 3 or 4 IIRC, but just be aware that they are still a double cut file (all needles are, by definition). They are also 3 Square, which means the edges are not cut and will give a sharp "V" gullet (not a real big deal with very fine toothed saws).

 

[Brit (Andy)]

Only 113 to go to reach 500 now. Thanks everyone.

 

[TobyC]

Nice,
Thanks Andy.

 

[TobyC]

Nice,
Thanks Andy.

 

[FenceFurniture]

A surprising discovery yesterday. VERY surprising.

Whilst Bahco Saw Files are made in Portugal (for them, not by them), their Needles Files are labelled:
"Bahco Oberg Swiss Made", and what's more, under an 8x Loupe they look it!

That's the surprising bit.

The "VERY" bit is that Bahco aren't trumpeting this fact. ¿Qué?

Bahco purchased Oberg a while ago. They were a manufacturer in Eskilstuna, Sweden (which is the Swedish equivalent of Sheffield).

 

[bugbear]

The "VERY" bit is that Bahco aren't trumpeting this fact. ¿Qué?

Most companies are keen to promote their own brand, in this case Bahco, and not anything else (e.g. country of manufacture).

Robin Lee has often made this point w.r.t. Lee Valley products. The quality (specification and control), reputation and guarantee all come from the vendor, not the manufacturer.

BugBear

 

[FenceFurniture]

Most companies are keen to promote their own brand, in this case Bahco, and not anything else (e.g. country of manufacture).

Certainly the likes of Grobet Swiss, Grobet USA, F.Dick and Pferd wouldn't be too keen to promote the country of manufacture. And in Bahco's case promoting the Needle files as Swiss might open them up to too many questions about where the others come from (although I think it must be pretty widely known that they're from Portugal - at least it's Europe).

Robin Lee has often made this point w.r.t. Lee Valley products. The quality (specification and control), reputation and guarantee all come from the vendor, not the manufacturer.

Indeed, but then RL is almost unique in the modern age.

Another thing I learned yesterday is that Stahlwille still make their files in Germany, but their range is tiny (and nothing even close to a Saw File).

I meant to upload the table of Bahco Needles in the previous post, so here it is (nice high tooth count on the Cut 4).

 

[Vann]

Most companies are keen to promote their own brand, in this case Bahco, and not anything else (e.g. country of manufacture).

Robin Lee has often made this point w.r.t. Lee Valley products.

Yebbut even Lee Valley promote their North American premier brand "Veritas" (must be made in Canada or USA to wear the brand name) and even when selling other companies products, highlight if it's made in the States or Canada (at least in their printed catalogues).

Cheers, Vann.

 

[FenceFurniture]

Here are the test files ready to be sent out to the first tester this arvo.

4" DEST Group:

5" DEST:

6" DEST:

5" EST:

6" EST:

4" ST:

6" ST:

6" RT:

Needle Files:

There are actually three other Needle files being included, but they are already with the first tester, so can't be photographed before.

 

[DMF]

Fair play, your clearly on a right mission with this and i can't help but be impressed with the work that has been put in so far so signed and good luck to you. Look forward to reading how well it turned out and where to get a proper file from when i come to learn how to sharpen my own saws

Dean

 

[MIGNAL]

That petition is crawling it's way to 500. Apathy? Given the back log that the like of Wenzloff and other premium saw makers had I'm surprised it's taking so long to reach 500.

 

[Brit (Andy)]

I think we will all have to wait and see what the price works out to be. Having had to deal with crappy files though, I would certainly pay more for consistent high quality files. Brett doesn't anticipate it being that much more.

I just want to give a shout out to Brett for taking the initiative here. He has already spent a lot of his own money collecting samples of all the saw files made today, organising tests with respected saw sharpeners, liaising with manufacturers, researching the ideal design, canvasing opinions from around the world etc, etc, etc. I'm sure you can imagine just how much work this is for him. I only started emailing with Brett about 10 days ago and I already have a huge respect for him. If anyone can make this happen, he can.

Please give him your support by signing the petition if you haven't already done so. Even if you don't sharpen your own saws, the people you send them to need quality saw files to do a good job for you. Let's make this happen people.

 

[Brit (Andy)]

Only 55 votes needed now to reach the minimum target fo 500. Please vote if you haven't already done so.