Pencil and paper

[user 5053]

Have any of you actually thought of sketching your designs using a pencil and paper rather than using a computer design programme. Iv'e looked at many of your Sketchup designs and most look lifeless, turgid and geometric.
I can scribble something in 2 minutes that would take ages of faffing about on the computer and can present it to the client. Learn to draw and your designs will have much more spirit, life and feeling and you'll never look back.

 

[wizer]

Each to their own Soufly. I don't have a natural talent for technical drawing and wasn't taught it at school. I am a computer nerd by profession, so I can work my way around Sketchup much faster and more accurately than using a pencil. We have had this debate many times. Many people either still use pencil and paper or do not make full working drawing. I don't think you can call most of DaveR's work lifeless!

 

[SketchUp Guru]

Soulfly, you should give lessons in how to win friends.

Lesson Number 1. Trash their work. :roll:

How about you show us some of your work before you criticize ours.

As Wiser says, not everyone is skilled at drawing with pencil and paper. Drawing with the computer makes it easier for those folks to make accurate drawings that communicate clearly.

(Thank you Wiser)

Lifeless?

Geometric?

Turgid?

I can draw with pencil and paper and do a respectable job at it but I choose to use the computer. The computer makes it faster and easier to confirm possible joinery issues and to make variations on a project.

So in 2 minutes you can scribble out a drawing. How long would it take you to draw something like this workbench? How long would it take you to calculate how much lumber you'd need to build it? I just did it. 6 seconds for an accurate calculation. (103.46 Board Feet +waste allowance)

 

[wizer]

maybe Soufly should show us his designs?

 

[SketchUp Guru]

maybe Soufly should show us his designs?

Indeed.

Maybe something like these would suit Soulfly better?

:lol:

 

[mailee]

I studied TD at school and I also used to paint in watercolours (even had an exhibition once and sold some!) I used to sketch my plans for my woodwork but it is too much trouble sketching to scale not to mention adding colours and 3d views to show customers. For my part I would much rather use Sketchup for my plans Having used Autocad and Turbocad in the past. To me it is quicker and helps me work out what looks nice and fits in to a place or niche. I will do a quick sketch with dimensions at the customers home but then place it on the computer to plan, this way it is there for future reference too. :wink:

 

[tnimble]

Nice Bench DaveR! (the other drawing are beautiful as well as usual)

By the way, I was thought technical and artistic drawing at school by hand. To get good accurate drawings you can use to get joinery and strength calculations out of or that are just nice and clean of any eraser marks etc takes a lot of planning sketching, time and effort.

I just hate ink drawings. one wrong move or hasitation and you can start all over or have a stain or smear in your, no matter how fast or much you try to clean it.

Love CAD!

 

[Wanlock Dod]

Personally, I think I'd rather use paper and pencil, but there are just so many conveniences, like, as Mailee says, getting all of your dimensions spot on so that you can see how everything will look and from a variety of different viewpoints.

Anyway, those pictures of Dave's are great

You probably don't need much skill to do a crude diagram, but I expect that it's quite a skill to be able to do a variety of perspective drawings, all exactly to scale within a reasonable timeframe.

Cheers,

Dod

 

[xraymtb]

I would particularly say that, if you want to present it to a client, then a computer generated image like those of Dave R will go down much better than even the best paper drawing most of us could manage.

When I'm in the workshop and I need to quickly work something out - I use pencil and paper - when I'm sitting in the study deciding what to make - I use Sketch Up (with 3DS Max and Maxwell Render).

 

[Anonymous]

Have any of you actually thought of sketching your designs using a pencil and paper rather than using a computer design programme. Iv'e looked at many of your Sketchup designs and most look lifeless, turgid and geometric.
I can scribble something in 2 minutes that would take ages of faffing about on the computer and can present it to the client. Learn to draw and your designs will have much more spirit, life and feeling and you'll never look back.

soul fly

I have been a design engineer for 25 years, and when I started out, the first thing we were told is that an engineer MUST be able to sketch ideas - I find it difficult to discuss any design without a pencil in my hand.

However, sketches are not representative of the finished item and CAD has a place.

personally, I think Sketchup is absolutely dreadful and it's output generally lifeless and geometric.
However, with true CAD programmes I can render a photographic quality image using real wood as the texture in less than 3 hours for any piece of furniture. I can change any dimensions etc. in seconds - far more flexible than pen and paper.
I then build it from these drawings.

Each to their own - I always sketch it out with a pencil first

 

[xraymtb]

personally, I think Sketchup is absolutely dreadful and it's output generally lifeless and geometric.
However, with true CAD programmes I can render a photographic quality image using real wood as the texture in less than 3 hours for any piece of furniture. I can change any dimensions etc. in seconds - far more flexible than pen and paper.

Sketch Up is more than capable of photoreal renderings - given the right plugins. And given the ease of use and the low cost compared to AutoCad/3DS Max/Solidworks etc. I think it allows everyone to start using their PC's to design their woodworking.

 

[SketchUp Guru]

personally, I think Sketchup is absolutely dreadful and it's output generally lifeless and geometric.

However, with true CAD programmes I can render a photographic quality image using real wood as the texture in less than 3 hours for any piece of furniture. I

Tony, you're comparing apples to oranges; raw SketchUp output to rendered CAD output.

Would you call these "lifeless"? They aren't mine but these are SketchUp drawings.

A complete "true CAD Programme" would cost more than many woodworkers have invested in their tools. Show us an alternative to SketchUp and Kerkythea that are as easy to learn and as inexpensive.

Besides, most woodworkers don't need photo-realistic renders. As you point out, "I can change any dimensions etc. in seconds - far more flexible than pen and paper."

Each to their own - I always sketch it out with a pencil first

Yes, indeed.

 

[Anonymous]

Dave

What I ws realy getting at is that Sketchup is ponderous to use and the native output shocks me it is so bad. The toolset is too limited to be called a set in my opinon.

I would rather draw in a 2D drafting package (CorelDraw has been my favourite since 1992) than SU due to its limitations.

OK it's free and that's great for people who have no draftign experience.

With plugins (free?) it is clearly giving better output, but it is still oranges when compared to a decent CAD packge, and rather old, rotten, way past the sell by date oranges at that :wink: :lol:


I think you too are aware of SU's limitations as you use high end CAD in your day job?

PS I bought SU before it became the free google version.

 

[SketchUp Guru]

Tony, no, I don't use high end CAD in my day job. I take care of life support equipment. No need for CAD of any sort for that work.

Your comments about SketchUp indicate that you haven't given it a chance at all.

SketchUp is not "ponderous" if you learn to you it.

Give me specific limitations. Look at the images I posted and tell me where they are limited.

There are a lot of free plugins for SketchUp but your asking for free ones is rich considering you are trashing a free programme in favor of one that is far from free.

Podium is a rendering plugin for SketchUp. No, that one is not free but the exporter plugin for sketchUp to Kerkythea is free and so is Kerkythea.

I take it from your comments that you find the images I posted, both mine and those of others, "rather old" and "rotten".

Show us the native output (non-rendered) output of your CAD programme.

No one is forcing SketchUp down anyone's throat but your comments and those of SoulFly are like telling someone they aren't doing woodworking unless they do it all with Lie-Nielsen planes and chisels.

I say again, show us something better than SketchUp and Kerkythea at the same price.

I suppose I'll be banned now for my comments but so be it.

p.s. I also bought SketchUp prior to Google buying the company and releasing the free version.

 

[Anonymous]

Dave

Sorry, I thught you used CAD in day job.

have given SU a very good chance, paiud good money for it and tried the free one and it is very poor.

If you have no real experiene of mid to high end CAD then you will never understand the HUGE limitations in Sketchup and why it takes so much more effort and time to perfom operations.

And example of where SU is very poor? That ridiulous protractor. In every package I have used, one simply types in an angle, et voila, line drawn at that angle.

I take it from your comments that you find the images I posted, both mine and those of others, "rather old" and "rotten".

??????????????????????? What?????????????????????

I ahven't said anythign about your images!!!! :roll: Read what is written Dave :wink:

THE PROGRAM INTERFACE AND THE WAY IT WORKS ARE PONDEROUS.

Your images are superb and I take my hat off to you, particularly as you created them despite using SU. You are clearly a very skilled and talented individual.


I wrote an article on using (real) CAD for GWW sometime back, but they decided not to print it as it was 'too advanced for our readership'. I thought it was a nice view of mid-end CAD use and I'll try to put it into a format that can be posted here for anyone interested.

 

[wizer]

As has been said. Each to their own.

CAD scared the life out of me, sketchup, I picked up very very quickly. For my purposes, it does all I need.

 

[SketchUp Guru]

Dave

Sorry, I thught you used CAD in day job.

I have no idea what would have given you that idea

have given SU a very good chance, paiud good money for it and tried the free one and it is very poor.

Your comments would lead one to think that you believe it is intended as a replacement for AutoCAD. It never was intended as that and still isn't the goal of SketchUp to replace CAD programs.

If you have no real experiene of mid to high end CAD then you will never understand the HUGE limitations in Sketchup and why it takes so much more effort and time to perfom operations.

But it doesn't take more time and effort to perform operations. As with any other application, you have to learn to use it.

And example of where SU is very poor? That ridiulous protractor. In every package I have used, one simply types in an angle, et voila, line drawn at that angle.

That works fine in 2D. The protractor is intuitive and simple to use. And you can still enter the angle.

I take it from your comments that you find the images I posted, both mine and those of others, "rather old" and "rotten".

??????????????????????? What?????????????????????

I ahven't said anythign about your images!!!! :roll: Read what is written Dave :wink:

You wrote "...output generally lifeless ..." The chair with the cherry texture is raw SketchUp output. The only post processing was cropping it to get rid of some of the white background.

THE PROGRAM INTERFACE AND THE WAY IT WORKS ARE PONDEROUS.

Your images are superb and I take my hat off to you, particularly as you created them despite using SU. You are clearly a very skilled and talented individual.

Thank you.


I wrote an article on using (real) CAD for GWW sometime back, but they decided not to print it as it was 'too advanced for our readership'. I thought it was a nice view of mid-end CAD use and I'll try to put it into a format that can be posted here for anyone interested.

I'm still waiting for your recommendation for an alternative to SketchUp at the same price. How much is it to purchase your "mid-end CAD" programme? And if folks here start using it, are you willing to help them learn to use it?

Tony, we'll never agree on this subject and it's probably best if the topic was closed.

Cheers,

Dave

 

[Slim]

I think it is rather pointless to compare Sketchup to a high end CAD package, when they are designed to serve different purposes. Anyway, how many woodworkers do you think would be willing to fork out the best part of £1000 for Autocad or the like?

For me, Sketchup has been intuitive and easy to learn. Certainly not ponderous and I have yet to find a limitation when it comes to designing furniture.

As for th OP's original statement/insult, I do sketch my initial ideas on paper but I always finalise the design on sketchup. It is a real advantage to be able to see the finished piece in 3D before even touching a piece of wood.

I find it incredible that you can describe Dave R's work as "lifeless, turgid and geometric". This simply isn't true.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Soulfly has gone very quiet, hasn't he? Perhaps this is just his idea of a wind-up. Never mind, it was a great opportunity to see some fantastic work.

S

 

[mpooley]

Tony
I actually would like to know what you consider a good 3d Cad program is for woodworking?

I have struggled with sketchup for a long time and im absolutely crap with it

Im sure a couple of weeks training with Dave would help but he lives a bit far away :shock:

Mike