Part P 'get out'?

[RogerS]

Been reading around this a lot recently. Do I spot a 'get-out' in the whole process?

Reading around the subject, it says that NICEIC deem someone is competent to do the testing etc if...and then the book I read listed four aspects, none of which was mandatory attendance on a course or a specific certificate or qualification. The book did then go on to say that only NICEIC qualified people can fill in the red Domestic Installation Certificate but then went on to say that they could sign off using the green Certificate which is the one for Approved Contractors.

So if you are deemed competent by virtue of meeting the four aspects mentioned above, this seems to suggest that you can inspect and test and sign off the green certificate yourself?

 

[mr]

It might be a question of who is doing the deeming - so to speak. In my youth I did a lot of PAT testing of kit and was deemed competent to carry out the work by the sparks who trained me. He had to put his name to paper to say that he deemed me competent regardless of the fact that I had no formal paperwork. I'm not sure that I could have deemed myself competent and in fact wasnt wholly comfortable to have been deemed to be competent but that's a different issue and one which sparked many an argument twixt management and union.

Cheers Mike

 

[skipdiver]

It's a grey area and like a lot of regulations open to interpretation.Even the statement i have just made would have some sparks up in arms claiming it is not.I believe anyone can do the work and if it is signed off by a self certifying sparks then it is ok.The problem is getting a sparks to sign off work they haven't done.Most of them wont touch it unless they have carried out the work.

 

[RogerS]

It might be a question of who is doing the deeming - so to speak. .......
Cheers Mike

True. But if what I read is correct then if one felt that one was competent (and let's face it...with a modocum of nouse. reading, asking questions, not being a plonker, understanding what needs to be done and measured, electrical safety etc etc) then you could deem yourself OK to sign.

At the end of the day, you're not going to sign off something that isn't fit for purpose as that will lay you wide open to proceedings etc in the event of someone getting hurt, building burnt down etc. Well..you'd be a damnfool if you did but we'reexcluding fools for the purposes of this discussion.

Steve ... understand. Where I'm coming from is really driven by my other thread regarding who actually provides the signatures as there is provision in the Part P procedures for Building Control to arrange testing etc. So slef-certification in this instance isn't applicable

 

[StevieB]

Hmm, to be honest Roger I think in a court of law (assuming a problem got that far) you would lose. Two reasons for that:

Can you prove you are competent - do you have the experience (in terms of past work done and inspected) and or certificates to prove this?

Secondly, do you have all the test equipment, and calibration certificates for that equipment, to prove the installation you have done is up to scratch.

I am quite happy to flout the part p nonsense and do my own electrics, did it before the requirement came in lawfully and will continue to do it now. BUT I would not sign a form that said it had been installed to spec because I do not have the ability to test to NICEIC standards. While I am quite happy with this, if it comes to selling my house etc I would not sign to say electrics had been installed to part p as I cannot prove it.

Guess it depends what you want in terms of future security. Two options are to do it yourself and stuff the part p issue, or get it done properly and pay for it to be tested and checked etc. I wouldnt take the third option and certify myself because in the event of a future problem you will never win in the courts or it will cost so much to fight your case that paying in the first place would have been cheaper.

As you are doing it as part of a rebuild and involving BC for some of the work I would take the latter and get it signed off properly. Its a small part of the overall rebuild cost (I would guess) and may save you a host of problems in the future even though its galling to have to put up with silly legislation and upfront cost and possible delays now.

Just my twopence worth....

Steve.

 

[RogerS]

Fair point, Steve, and I agree with you up to a point as I will be carrying out the testing also myself ahead of getting BC to send in the sparks to inspect and test. I'll probably buy a Fluke and then stick it back on ebay or hire one. The testing is not rocket science

I also agree that this could all be somewhat academic (at least as far as I am concerned) since it is being done under BC. But what did prompt me to dig a little deeper and to raise this topic was because of my other thread.

To precis, there are three signatures required....design, construction and inspect/test. Since there is provision within Part P to go down the DIY route and notify BC, I posed the question as to who signs for Design and who signs for Construction (in the electrical sense).

 

[andrewm]

As far as I am aware - and I cannot find a reference at the moment - Part P legislation defines competent as membership of an approved organization. So, even if you are not competent but belonged to, say NICEIC then you could sign it off but if you had years of experience and did not belong then you could not.

Andrew

(Who was annoyed that the IEE does not qualify as an approved organization even though they write the Wiring Regs. )

 

[skipdiver]

That just shows how stupid regs can get.Red tape does my napper in.Another thing that annoys me is that plumbers and sparks are allowed to self regulate and self certify when their work,if not done correctly, can be potentially lethal,whereas i as a builder/joiner am not allowed to self regulate something as simple as putting a roof on a bay window without someone from the council coming and checking up on me and wanting cash from my customer.

RogerS,can't your questions be answered by the BCO?

 

[andrewm]

That just shows how stupid regs can get.Red tape does my napper in.Another thing that annoys me is that plumbers and sparks are allowed to self regulate and self certify when their work,if not done correctly, can be potentially lethal,whereas i as a builder/joiner am not allowed to self regulate something as simple as putting a roof on a bay window without someone from the council coming and checking up on me and wanting cash from my customer.

RogerS,can't your questions be answered by the BCO?

As I understand it, it is even worse than that. I believe that it is possible to self-certify even if you are not qualified but someone in the company for which you work is. But I could be wrong.

I have come across one case of a chartered electrical engineer being asked by his local building control to do training for their staff on Part P inspection but yet because he was not a member of the right body was not allowed to install a new socket in his kitchen unless someone (who he had trained ) came to inspect it.

And before anyone else make the comment - this has nothing to do with Europe.

Andrew

 

[kafkaian]

I know some good, competent and intelligent sparkies (term of endearment NOT ridicule), but when I purchased my house which supposedly had complete NICEIC certified rewiring done, lo and behold I looked at a few sockets, opened up to the metal patress box embedded into the brick work and NONE of them have rubber sheathing /grommets installed between the cable and the cable apertures/knockouts, whilst on numerous occasions the wiring is too tight allowing no room for thermal contraction.

***** here (well according to the Government I am) went to the University of Birmingham and studied Electrical and Electronic Engineering (eventually falling into software) obtaining IEE/IEEE accredited membership in the process and having to do everything to the very strictest standards where it is the norm to embark on quality assured methodologies and the very latest processes. BUT apparently, I don't know what I'm doing.

Some fool on the other hand ( and I don't use such strong terms lightly), in the process of rewiring my parent's private home on the back of some local authority grant (another joke), decided to confuse ring main with radial wiring and vice-versa. He wired up the fused spur to the alarm unit, without checking whether the wiring to the alarm was in fact valid and on at least two occasions, installed switch plates the wrong way up.

Self-accredited my ar*e. I've now got to wait for the Council's 'Window Police' to come visiting (after I INFORMED HIM about trickle vents and k-glass thermal standards because he sure wasn't going to tell me), to inform me (for another £70 of money apparently I've got to burn) that the two uPVC windows I've just installed (yuk but all my fronts are wood), are to some arbitrarily applied standard.

If you're not earning > £50k in this country (assuming you have a mortgage and a family to keep), the cost of everything is becoming so prohibitive, that I just don't know how some are affording the work being done on their homes. Surely much of it is going underground with home owners risking the wrath of Caveat Emptor clauses (legalese for "buyer beware") when they come to sell their homes whilst sticking two fingers up to the 12 month period (soon to be 24 months) beyond which Building Standards say they can't impose change or rework?

 

[mr]

If you're not earning > £50k in this country (assuming you have a mortgage and a family to keep), the cost of everything is becoming so prohibitive, that I just don't know how some are affording the work being done on their homes.

They're not having the work done - at least I'm not, it's a race to see if the house falls down before I fall into the grave.

Mike

 

[kafkaian]

They're not having the work done - at least I'm not, it's a race to see if the house falls down before I fall into the grave.

....which seems to be a sad indictment on government policy that's perceivably hellbent in its determination to hammer the poorer in society! We need standards upheld for sure, but please let us have some commonsense as well.

 

[p111dom]

Alternatively you could move to Scotland where part p does not apply.