Paint for new sash windows

[wobblycogs]

I've just finished building my first sash windows and now comes the bit I don't enjoy so much, painting. As I've put in a lot of hours building the windows I'd obviously like them to last so I want to go with a decent selection of paints that will give me a few years before I need to rub down and refinish.

The windows are made out of meranti which is dry, not oily and sap free. The only exception are the sills which are made of some other unknown tropical hardwood which is very dense and again dry, not oily and sap free (and lovely to work with). Currently all the wood is sanded to 220 grit ready for painting.

I'm currently leaning towards using Leyland Trade Acrylic Primer Undercoat, Undercoat and Trade Gloss as the price is reasonable and I can pick them up from ScrewFix today for a long weekends hard work. I've read what I can find out there and a lot people seem to rate Zinsser Bulls Eye 123 as a primer, would the extra expense make any noticeable difference as I don't have stains to cover?

Any recommendations on paint choices would be gratefully received as would any tips on getting a good long lasting finish.

Cheers

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Hi - my tuppence worth:

I know the wood is not oily/sappy but I'd really recommend aluminium-based primer e.g. http://www.duluxdecoratorcentre.co.uk/v ... ood-primer followed by a normal exterior paint system. I've found it excellent.

Other tips for longevity: I'd paint everything, especially inside glazing rebates/beads. I'd make sure there are no sharp arrises (paint always seems to fail at/near sharp edges first). If using dg units, I'd make sure that the rebates are vented and drained and use proper dg spacers around the edges. You have to plan for the fact that water will get in where you think/hope it won't and how to get rid of it harmlessly.

Cheers W2S

 

[Jacob]

I've been doing sash windows and other trad external joinery for nearly 40 years.
For the last 7 years I've used only linseed oil paint and can say it's totally superior to all the modern paints I used to use. Google - it was marketed under the "Holkham Hall" brand name but now is "Allback". There are other brands but Allback is the only one I've had experience with.
I wish I'd known about it earlier - I've seen so much paint fail.
I use modern paints internally but basically they are not good enough for external work.

 

[wobblycogs]

Cheers for that, I saw someone else mention that an aluminium based primer might be a good idea, I'll see if I can find any locally as none of my usual places appear to sell it.

I plan on giving linseed paints a go at some point but right now I don't think I really have time to experiment with something new unfortunately. The claimed 15 year life is certainly appealing though as there's nothing worse than rubbing down old woodwork in my opinion.

 

[bugbear]

... there's nothing worse than rubbing down old woodwork in my opinion.

Oh, I can think of something worse...

I've got a large, elaborate (rather pretty) wrought iron gate that's a little rusty and down at heel.

It will go to a specialist to be stripped (or blasted), primed and painted.

I have no intention of doing it my self!

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I've found aluminium primer not very good for hardwoods, much better for softwoods. my only real disaster where it peeled badly was ... meranti.

 

[wobblycogs]

BB: Yes, preparing metal work for repainting is definitely worse I've been putting off doing our fancy cast iron porch for about five years now. Unfortunately any specialist paint remover would have to come to me as there's no way it could be moved without breaking something.

Time for a quick googling of meranti and aluminium paint I think.

 

[Jacob]

One of the many advantages of linseed oil paint is that it doesn't need rubbing down before repainting.
It's quite different from modern paint and instead of peeling or flaking off, it tends to go "dusty" on the surface and to revive it just needs washing down. If that's not good enough and it needs repainting, it is now ready. No paint removal, sanding, priming, undercoating, needed.
It's fantastically labour saving.

I've come to the conclusion that it's modern paint which has brought timber windows into disrepute and brought about the plastic revolution.

 

[Owl]

I am a long retired painter & decorator and agree entirely 100% with two of the answers to your question.

1 .... reply by Jacob

2 .... reply by Phil.p

You say that you don't think you have the time right now to be experimenting and hate rubbing down old paintwork. Believe me, you will be going down that road a lot sooner by not using the linseed oil based paint.

For some unknown reason (at least to me) aluminium fails to apply a good key to hardwoods and red oxide isn't much better in that department either.

 

[Owl]

I've come to the conclusion that it's modern paint which has brought timber windows into disrepute and brought about the plastic revolution.

All brought about by the general public's wish to have faster drying paints.

 

[Jacob]

Remember Mother's Pride and Worthington E?
We are getting a real paint scenario developing for similar reasons to the real ale and real bread tendencies (i.e. the modern stuff is total ****). :lol:

 

[blackrodd]

Hi - my tuppence worth:

I know the wood is not oily/sappy but I'd really recommend aluminium-based primer e.g. http://www.duluxdecoratorcentre.co.uk/v ... ood-primer followed by a normal exterior paint system. I've found it excellent.

Other tips for longevity: I'd paint everything, especially inside glazing rebates/beads. I'd make sure there are no sharp arrises (paint always seems to fail at/near sharp edges first). If using dg units, I'd make sure that the rebates are vented and drained and use proper dg spacers around the edges. You have to plan for the fact that water will get in where you think/hope it won't and how to get rid of it harmlessly.

Cheers W2S

+1 Above!
This has worked for me too!
I use Dulux as much as possible, and their silver primer hasn't let me down yet and I rather think that their version of silver primer was made with hardwoods in mind.
I have seen acrylic primer fail so often in exterior work, which was developed mainly for fast and quick interior work and is very successful at that, so I never use acrylic on exterior finishing.
As mentioned, try and get the arris, sharp edge knocked off any stops, beads etc as the edges can fail fast.
Those that can remember, the old pink primer was very long lasting and worked exceptionally well with the oil based finishes at the time.
But now lead paints are outlawed, but using chemicals instead!
The choice of paint is up to you, but I would advise against any water based primer on windows.
Regards Rodders

 

[HOJ]

Not wishing to hijack the thread, a q for Jacob, Have you had good results with the linseed paint on Oak, either pigmented or clear.

I have not had the courage to use it on my external joinery, whilst hearing many good reports, I tend to stick with the proprietary products, Osmo etc, so the customer can continue with the maintenance, or use Accoya, instead, when it is to be painted.

I would be interested to hear your findings.

Paul

 

[Woody2Shoes]

All due respect to those with greater knowledge/experience than me - although Jacob's only been using linseed-based paints for 7 years so maybe a little early to draw too many conclusions (?!? insert tongue-in-cheek smiley ?!?). I admit, I've not tried the ali-based primer on hardwood so I should have mentioned that(!) but I think my points re. detailing are still valid.

Maybe a better idea, for next time,would be to use Accoya - apparently paints/finishes are supposed to last three times longer, mostly because it's so much more dimensionally stable - I've not tried it myself yet, but will do soon.

Cheers, W2S

 

[Owl]

Remember Mother's Pride and Worthington E?

Zebo and Robins starch =D>

 

[Jacob]

Not wishing to hijack the thread, a q for Jacob, Have you had good results with the linseed paint on Oak, either pigmented or clear.

No I haven't. But oak is not good painted anyway. Quite a few windows I've taken out had rotten oak cills but the redwood still in good nick. If you are going to paint it's pointless using oak and I never do.

...... use Accoya, instead, when it is to be painted .....l

Linseed oil on redwood seems fine.

 

[Jacob]

All due respect to those with greater knowledge/experience than me - although Jacob's only been using linseed-based paints for 7 years so maybe a little early to draw too many conclusions

But I've been using modern paints for 50 years and seeing it fail - not just me - pro decorators on the job. So far my trials with linseed have outperformed all my modern paint examples and are still looking good.

Maybe a better idea, for next time,would be to use Accoya - apparently paints/finishes are supposed to last three times longer, mostly because it's so much more dimensionally stable - I've not tried it myself yet, but will do soon.

Cheers, W2S

Or use redwood and better paint.

It's been a serious issue for me especially as I've committed myself to 16 very large trad redwood windows all linseed oil painted, in my own chapel conversion. It's been a great relief to see it working so well - it could have been an expensive fiasco.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I suspect the problem with oak is its coarse grain - once water finds a spot to penetrate, it can't then get out or evaporate easily because it's under the paint. Water in itself doesn't cause many problems - trapped water does.

 

[Jacob]

I suspect the problem with oak is its coarse grain - once water finds a spot to penetrate, it can't then get out or evaporate easily because it's under the paint. Water in itself doesn't cause many problems - trapped water does.

Yes.
Also paint simply doesn't stick so well to oak.
It'd be interesting to see if linseed works any better but from the old windows I've taken out I suspect not.

 

[Jacob]

Another linseed brand here. http://www.oricalcum.uk/
There will be more I've no doubt, it ticks so many boxes.

re OP - I forgot to say - after linseed oil first coat, shellac is good for glazing rebates.
So it's oil on bare wood followed by shellac in glazing rebates (and knots), then glaze, then paint.