Oxy-Acetylene fo the Diy enthusiast

[MeltedEVERYTHING]

Hello again all.
Got such geat help on the old weld helmet question I had, thought I'd ask about something I've always wanted to get into but know nothing about.
I did a Motocycle maintenance education thing a while back. One bit was welding (oxyAcetylene) and IT WAS ASWESOME.
But all weld stuff these days seems to be tig mig and ac... is oxy actylene out of fashion? POssible? Outlawed? Only done by ninjas now?

Anyone?

THanks as always, happy melting

 

[Amplidyne]

Not AFAIK, and it's possible to buy a set of small bottles from various outlets. What the position would be in a domestic setting about insurance I don't know.
I've thought about it, or possibly oxy propane, if only for heating and brazing. I believe oxy propane won't weld properly though.

 

[Sideways]

Not common at home I'd say.
Cost / availability / impact on your home insurance.

Big cylinders are not rented to domestic customers even if you could afford them, and small portapac or disposible cylinders are very costly to run.

If you only want v small, there are solutions for jewellers.

No, you can't weld with oxy propane. It doesn't get intense enough. You can braze, but you can braze using a tig set, and most tig sets will also do stick with a suitable lead so that takes care of the need for heavy welds and outdoor, though not the need for portability away from mains or a big generator.

 

[deema]

Acetylene and domestic insurance are like oil and water. For most stuff apart from welding oxy propane is a better bet.
I’d say acetylene for welding has been superseded by MIG or TIG. TIG is more versatile but harder to learn. MIG is far easier and can weld aluminium as well as steel. If it were me, I’d go TIG.

 

[Spectric]

It all depends upon what you are welding, if you have mastered oxyacetylene then TIG is much easier to master as you already have filler rod control and TIG gives a very precise heat source. If I could have just one welder it would be my TIG plant but I learnt oxy and stick welding first. oxyacetylene has a few big advantages, if repairing something a little rusty like an old car then it gives the heat to shape and bend the metal as well as weld it in place, TIG needs clean material and enviroment but with the right plant can do Ali, Stainless or steel wih ease. You can also use oxy Hydrogen for welding and cutting but not oxy propane which is only for cutting or gouging. With the oxy acetylene you have to know the safety issues and rules about the cylinders, always safer to use flashback arrestors and keep oil and grease well away from the oxygen. With TIG the pure Argon is not cheap and if welding a lot of aluminium then you want a water cooled torch and I found the foot control very handy.

 

[Dabop]

In Australia, oxy acetylene has practically disappeared- mostly due to the cost...
I still have a set- although I haven't used them in years- well a couple of decades- I got the big cylinders (about 2m high,30cm around- they are my own personal bottles) and the cost to refill is staggering- for both bottles, not much change out of half a grand!!! plus both are well and truly out of date, so would need the full inspection before refilling (if they passed) thats another couple of hundred...

I paid less for both the Mig welder and the plasma cutter combined...

I 'could' rent a couple of bottles (then inspections etc are the companies problem) but thats about a hundred a year just to rent the bottles, add in refills etc, and the limited use for oxy (the mig and plasma do everything the oxy does at least for me lol) and they simply don't make any sense to use...

Insurance doesn't care less here about having an oxy torch in the shed, simply a non issue...

 

[johnb80]

I had a BOC Portapack (1/3 sized bottles) for many years. I did inform my insurers that they were in my workshop and they just noted it, no increase in premium. About 10 years ago I sold it and went on to MIg & TIG, never looked back.

 

[ChaiLatte]

As above, it is normally cost-prohibitive for a hobby use.

It needs very specialised facilities to induce acetylene to enter a cylinder and sit there quietly without trying to escape at high velocity. As such, there are rather fewer bottling plants in the UK than there are branches of Tesco.

The traditional mode of obtaining a cylinder is through one of the two companies: BOC or Air Products. You do not own the cylinder, only rent it from them. The annual rental is costly; the refill is costly; the delivery charge is costly. You can obtain these costs from the respective websites.

There is now a second model, called 'rent-free'. It is offered by HobbyWeld an Albee. In that, you pay a (large) amount as a deposit on the cylinder and then only pay for refills. When you want to stop ownership, your original deposit will be refunded. The volumetric charge for their refills is higher thsn BOC.

You have to do the maths yourself based on anticipated usage - work on a one, two and five year basis and see the implications. Remember to do the same for the oxygen bottle.

A third alternative is oxy-mapp, which is hotter than oxy-propane and cooler than oxy-acetylene. These sets are normally sold with disposable bottles and cost per litre would be extremely high.

 

[MeltedEVERYTHING]

OCK AND OLL - soy the lette between q and s in the alphabet is knackeed on my keyboad as you can tell.
Thanks fo hte feedback though guys. I wanted to do moe with OXY acetylene and find out abotu it cos the pecise is insanely contollable and a lot easie to see than the mig o tig fo me... i just danced the backl of weld aound whee i needed it to go. Just found it eally easy, pecise and satisfying but only did it a couple of times and neve saw o head any moe. when i looked into welding oiginally I neve saw any options so it kind of faded but would LOVE to find a small kit to do occasional wok with.

someone mentioned potapacks... is that a common option o vey specific and limited availability? Is bottle filling and soucing a headache o easonably do able?

Thanks again all, minnus the Lette " "

 

[redhunter350]

If you want to use Oxy Acetylene then there are really only two ways to go -- either the small jewellery sets, only good if your usage is very small and using a small torch. Otherwise go of Albee gas [already mentioned] Albee is part of the Air Liquide company in Europe, similar to BOC over here.

The initial cylinder deposit/lifetime rental is now quite high [about £60 when I got mine] and yes the refills are more costly than BOC but it pales not insignificance when you add up the annual BOC rental charges ! I also use Albee for my Argon and Argo Shield gasses for the same reasons and over the years it has saved me a very large lump of cash ! Never worked it out but for sure a four figure sum.

 

[Sideways]

My argon cylinder is one of those rent free types - from Adams gas. I have it for TIG welding.

Out of curiousity I looked to see if they offered acetylene and I see they offer an alternative.
I have no experience of propylene gas. I imagine it burns hotter than propane and less hot than acetylene, but with slightly less risk because it's more stable.
Here's the link in case you are interested.

https://www.adamsgas.co.uk/acetylene-gas-alternative-propylene/

 

[ChaiLatte]

I have no experience of propylene gas

Propylene is one of the 'P's in MAPP gas.

 

[Spectric]

The neutral Oxyacetylene flame temperature is about 3300° C and remains constant whatever size nozzle you use, it is only the heat that changes and if using a different gas with a different temperature you will need to adjust your welding to suit. Acetylene in the cylinder is also liquid stored in Kapok and is why if you transport the cylinders horizontal that you need to leave them upright overnight to settle out otherwise you risk liquid in the pipes.

 

[Fergie 307]

As above, it is normally cost-prohibitive for a hobby use.

It needs very specialised facilities to induce acetylene to enter a cylinder and sit there quietly without trying to escape at high velocity. As such, there are rather fewer bottling plants in the UK than there are branches of Tesco.

The traditional mode of obtaining a cylinder is through one of the two companies: BOC or Air Products. You do not own the cylinder, only rent it from them. The annual rental is costly; the refill is costly; the delivery charge is costly. You can obtain these costs from the respective websites.

There is now a second model, called 'rent-free'. It is offered by HobbyWeld an Albee. In that, you pay a (large) amount as a deposit on the cylinder and then only pay for refills. When you want to stop ownership, your original deposit will be refunded. The volumetric charge for their refills is higher thsn BOC.

You have to do the maths yourself based on anticipated usage - work on a one, two and five year basis and see the implications. Remember to do the same for the oxygen bottle.

A third alternative is oxy-mapp, which is hotter than oxy-propane and cooler than oxy-acetylene. These sets are normally sold with disposable bottles and cost per litre would be extremely high.

I gave up my oxy acetelyne kit when the rental charges from BOC hit £200 annually, and that was only for the next size up from the Portapak ones.
Now use a little OXY MAP set with disposable bottles. Fine for the few occasions I use it for little brazing jobs etc.
MIG/TIG definitely the way to go for welding.
CO2/ Argon mix and pure Argon for both from the local motor factor at pretty reasonable prices. In my case no specific charge for the bottle you just swap your empty for a full one.

 

[Sideways]

Propylene is one of the 'P's in MAPP gas.

Cheers, then I guess I've used it watered down in the yellow cylinders.

Although they headline that it's traditionally used for welding etc, reading further into Adams site they give uses as heating and brazing, etc. I'll bet oxy propylene isn't really hot enough to substitute for oxy acetylene welding.

Edit : as an addendum and though I don't recall the names of the individual gases, original consumer MAPP gas canisters were I believe all from one manufacturing plant in the Quebec. It was closed down and since 2008 consumer grade cylinders have been MAP gas - a different formulation and not as hot as MAPP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAPP_gas

and pasted from the garage journal

Oxy-acet flame temp ~5720 F and gives a 'target heat' of ~4700 F

Oxy-MAPP flame temp ~5340 F

Oxy-propylene flame temp ~5240 F

Oxy-propane flame temp ~5130 F

Air-acetylene 'target' temp ~2700 F

Air-propylene 'target' temp ~2150 F

Air-propane flame temp ~2600 F and 'target' temp ~1750 F

 

[Fergie 307]

For heating or brazing, depending on the temperature you need to achieve, you can save a bit by using a regular MAPP blowtorch to get something up to a certain level. Then just use the Oxy MAPP set to bring it up to where you need it.
Also good for cast iron, where you need the whole piece to be good and hot. Play one or more MAPP blowtorches on it, then go in and braze or weld. Then bury in a bucket of preferably hot sand so it cools very slowly.
Any of the small disposable cylinder kits get through oxygen like it's going out of fashion.

 

[Garden Shed Projects]

The risk assessment needed to use it in a commercial setting makes it prohibitive as its particularly volatile in a fire. I assume thats why you can't use it privately.

If you want to know how volotile check this video out, it gets pretty wild a minute or so in.

 

[johnb80]

 

[MeltedEVERYTHING]

Wish I'd found you guys 10 yeas ago when I was teaching myself stick on the floo of my gaage... would have saved myself A TONNE of "expensive" lessons .

THanks as alwayss guys

 

[Duncan A]

Another issue with acetylene is that hard thumps e.g. dropping the cylinder can cause a runaway thermal reaction within the cylinder. This is why they should be transported in cages.
And...... Related to the video link above, look up BLEVE//blevy. Seriously scary!