One for the domestic sparkies out there

[Valhalla]

I need some clarification on probably what is a common situation.

My neighbour is selling their house and the purchasers have insisted on sending a sparks round to test the installation. The fuseboard is as old as the hills, plastic and uses rewireable fuses. It is also mounted on a timber back-board.

So subject to all IR, R1+R2, Zs+Ze Polarity and Continuity testing being satisfactory:

Does my neighbour have to change anything?
upgrade to a new metal board?
Install rcd or lightning protection
Replace timber back-board

Anything else?

Cheers for the help

 

[Dee J]

UK property is sold as seen. Any 'defects', real or imagined are simply negotiating tactics. As long as there's no duplicity in the description (subject to the normal estate agent florishes).

 

[Terry - Somerset]

As a purchaser I would be concerned about the electrical safety of what seems a very old installation. I would want it inspected by an appropriately qualified person to ensure that I understand the implications.

If the sparky reports that it needs fixing to be compliant, or worse, dangerous I would want to understand the likely cost. Once I own the property, I become responsible for things like public liability, fire insurance etc. Failing to rectify that which should be leaves me completely liable.

Were the cost high I may consider going back to the vendor (your neighbour) with a reduced offer which he may or may not accept.

But AFAIK there is nothing that compels your neighbour to fix anything prior to sell - it is very much a case of buyer beware!

 

[Jameshow]

Often houses are sold on the back of the 3 D and in which case there is no way of getting a installation checked.

 

[Sideways]

It's the buyer's problem. Just consider it part of the survey so that they can understand what they;'re buying.
It was most likely compliant at the time it was installed and there is no obligation to update it as time goes by and regulations get stricter.
I had a similar 40+ year old 8 way rewireable fuse Wylex consumer unit until just this year.

If he's had new circuits added or other substantial changes made, then these should have been registered and documented according to the rules at the time they were done. The buyer may ask for these.

 

[Spectric]

The fuseboard is as old as the hills, plastic and uses rewireable fuses.

They have probably missed out that the wiring is rubber and any decent electrician will advise that the current installation poses a thermal risk to both the property and occupants, then once they are in the know they could have issues with insurance. A good surveyor should also raise some concerns but many will be oblivious. The new buyers should be looking for any defects that could give them leverage on the price and to ensure no nasty expensive surprises once they have purchased because then it is to late. Any work undertaken will have to comply with the latest standards and that will mean residual current protection, that means a new board which means metal clad. A good installation that is fully compliant these days should have RCBO's so each circuit is fully protected without any impact on any others and be wired as radials. Cost is not looking cheap as it sounds like a 100% refit from board to every socket and switch so the new buyer needs to take this into account, plus all the remedial work needed once all the walls have been chased and floorboards taken up.

 

[Cozzer]

UK property is sold as seen. Any 'defects', real or imagined are simply negotiating tactics. As long as there's no duplicity in the description (subject to the normal estate agent florishes).

Florishes...like it!
Am I right in thinking that it's one area where the Trades Description Act doesn't apply?

 

[flying haggis]

Neighbour doesnt have to change anything. let the new owners sort it out. they are probably going to refurbish it anyway so that will be the ideal time for them to have the wiring redone

 

[Spectric]

they are probably going to refurbish it anyway so that will be the ideal time for them to have the wiring redone

But that has to be reflected in the sale price, this is a safety issue and what if the new owners don't want to renovate immediately but want to live there a while to find there feet, and maybe a couple of kids all living in a potential hazard. We all have the right to live in a secure and safe property so let's hope they get the info they need and make the right decision.

 

[Inspector]

Here when one puts in an offer on a house it is subject to inspection, paid for buy the buyer. Inspectors are licensed and go over the entire home from foundation to roof and note anything in their report, including electrical, roof shingle life left, substandard structural, plumbing and drainage, mould issues etc. Then if there are major undisclosed or hidden issues the buyer can walk without penalty. If the defects are minor the parties negotiate a price adjustment, accept as is or the owner fixes them before the deal is completed. Given the house is old a buyer would expect to have to correct the wiring if they plan on making changes or improvements.

Pete

 

[Dee J]

But that has to be reflected in the sale price, this is a safety issue and what if the new owners don't want to renovate immediately but want to live there a while to find there feet, and maybe a couple of kids all living in a potential hazard. We all have the right to live in a secure and safe property so let's hope they get the info they need and make the right decision.

Doesn't 'have to be'. That's the basis of negotiation in the UK market. If the buyers don't want these issues then there's the option (subject to affordability and availability) to buy somewhere else - or to buy new-build, because that always works out well, doesn't it? Personally prefer old buildings in their original state, where I can judge issues for myself rather than the property-flipper special where 'everything' is skimmed over.

 

[Valhalla]

Thanks to everyone who commented.

I've been round and had a look and it turns out there is a mixture of boards - 1 with rewireable fuses, and 2 with MCBs (no RCD). All are plastic. I think all cables are pvc (from what I can see - and without taking any faces off).

My guess is a full rewire is required just based on the age of the cables (let alone the fuseboards) and this would be my preferred route if I was buying it.

Roughly how much is a full rewire these days - 2 up - 2 down with an extension and power in the garage (10m from the house)?

Cheers

 

[ajs]

Often houses are sold on the back of the 3 D and in which case there is no way of getting a installation checked.

If you're buying of plan things work differently since building work has to conform to current codes and is backed by statutory warranty, currently six years. An existing building generally has no such assurances and can be in any condition, after all nothing stops you selling a property as a doer-upper. That is why getting a survey is a good idea, the whole point is to advise on condition of the property and any work required. They have professional indemnity insurance if they miss something that leaves you with a large unexpected repair bill.

 

[Dee J]

Thanks to everyone who commented.

I've been round and had a look and it turns out there is a mixture of boards - 1 with rewireable fuses, and 2 with MCBs (no RCD). All are plastic. I think all cables are pvc (from what I can see - and without taking any faces off).

My guess is a full rewire is required just based on the age of the cables (let alone the fuseboards) and this would be my preferred route if I was buying it.

Roughly how much is a full rewire these days - 2 up - 2 down with an extension and power in the garage (10m from the house)?

Cheers

Pvc cabling has a virtually infinite lifespan - so what's there could test out safe and useable. More the issue will be poor specification - not enough sockets, limited lighting etc. So bring up to basic spec (consumer unit and some accessories) with what's there could be £2k, whereas full, lots of everything spec £10k+ (depending on region and local rates) - always assuming a contractor can be found.

 

[flying haggis]

Roughly how much is a full rewire these days - 2 up - 2 down with an extension and power in the garage (10m from the house)?

"how long is a piece of string?" depends on what you want in the way of sockets ie how many (more is better!) cooker ccts, cat5/6 wiring, coax.phone, alarm etc and if you are going for a full rewire then that is the time to do any and all extra that you think you might want in the future even if it just involves putting in conduits for future changes

 

[HOJ]

I've had long conversations in the past about this situation, and even now Im still not clear as to how It is "legally" resolved.

This is a quote from the regs with regard periodic inspection & testing: "in order to determine as far as reasonably practicable, whether the installation is in a satisfactory condition for continued service.”

As far as I know, you aren't under any obligation to upgrade anything, under the definition above, we were always told to keep copies of the older Regs for reference, as, if any alterations had been carried out, we could check that they complied with regs in force at that time, and as such are/were still applicable.

Rabbet hole, that's why I wouldn't, mind you I can't do EICR's, (did the course but not exam) plus I jacked in the Part P racket.

 

[Spectric]

Doesn't 'have to be'. That's the basis of negotiation in the UK market

There are ways round the problem, for example some years ago I was asked to look over an old property for a freinds freind as a favour, yes I know not always the right move.

On visual inspection I had concerns and on testing I found that there were areas for serious concern which I deemed as a threat to life, one was an electric shower over an old iron bath that was a complete DIY bodge and only protected by a 40 amp fuse and there were others, it also failed most insulation testing which would have been obvious had it been protected by an RCD. The problem at this point was that I now knew of the hazards, that changes everything because you cannot just ignore or hope someone does something one day. I contacted the local DNO who sent out a guy to inspect, they were also shocked, not litteraly and had words with the current owners who had moved into residential care and then removed the company fuse with a declaration of the danger and that it would be an offence to reinstate the supply to this property without a certificate of safety presented to local building control and then for them to reconnect. So now the vendors had a house without electricity that was in need of full rewire and no hiding place. The final sale price was negioted and sale went through but the people could not move in until a lot of renovation work had been done and a full rewire undertaken but they were not lumbered with 100% of that cost so all were happy.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Don't forget lenders and insurers. Lenders often have their own demands and insurers look for any excuse not to pay out. I had some work done and my electrics tested a couple of years ago and the sparkie told me a customer of his had had a really bad flood due to burst pipes in the roof and the insurers wouldn't pay out because his electrical test certificate was out of date (which of course was irrelevant to the flooding).

 

[Torx]

Don't forget lenders and insurers. Lenders often have their own demands and insurers look for any excuse not to pay out. I had some work done and my electrics tested a couple of years ago and the sparkie told me a customer of his had had a really bad flood due to burst pipes in the roof and the insurers wouldn't pay out because his electrical test certificate was out of date (which of course was irrelevant to the flooding).

Is an electrical test cert needed in a house you own / mortgage? I thought that was just for landlords.

 

[Sideways]

No. Unless something has changed recently.
Electrical inspections are recommended but not mandatory for domestic properties. The inspection report will recommended the date of next inspection and the standard interval is 10 years unless there's reason to make it less.
There are different and specific rules for rental properties, commercial, public buildings, pubs and clubs ...
In Phil's example, unless the insurer has something written in their small print, they are trying it on and should be challenged.