One Bevel, Two Bevels, Three Bevels, More?

[Corneel]

When I look at the Raggenbass I don't see anything like the torturing back flattening procedure that some modern authors wants us to do. He hones the bevel and swipes the bevel around on the stone a little bit. That's it.

GLFaria: There is a big difference. Using a handplane on a piece of wood isn't industrial high precision machining. Everything you need to know about using a handplane was allready known back when handplanes were a commercial important factor. Some of that knowledge is lost though, because it wasn't carefully documented.

And sharpening a plane blade is not half as complex as a drill bit. It's just one edge you know. A jig won't give you more relevant precision then doing it freehand.

 

[GLFaria]

AndyT, thank you very very much indeed for that link. Beautiful, inspiring, true poetry. I am fortunate to be a good speaker of French, so I could fully follow the dialogues.

One phrase that, I think, sums up pretty well the traditional way of thinking, is when, at 5´36, after checking the plane sole with the sticks, he says "voilà, on peut considérer que c'est bon...", which means "there, we may consider it is good...". This phrase sums it all - he doesn't look for perfection, he knows it is unattainable - he is looking for "good". And then, just as naturally, he shifts to a motorised thickness planer - not really the most traditional of tools...
There are small details to learn too - for instance, why is one grip of the bow saw longer than the other (37'40")?

Anyway, we should keep in mind that, historically, artisans who lived by their trade took advantage of any new process they could find to get an edge on their competitors. And they made everything on their power to hide their secrets of the trade. The man states in a way or another that wooden tools are beautiful, but that manufacturing them as a way of living belongs to the past, and that metal tools are thw way of the future.

This all puts a discussion between which is best - a "traditional" way, whatever that is, or a more "modern" way - as more than moot. It is pointless. Each one should choose the best ways to get to his ends (I mean, honest ends, not the "anything goes" kind, of course.

This is a video I will be certain to see more than once in the future.

Corneel:
"A jig won't give you more relevant precision then doing it freehand". Maybe not, I am not sure. But, as far as I'm concerned and my ability goes, it will give me a better edge. And that is what I am after.

 

[bugbear]

Plus it's not easy to get a camber with a jig- it's unavoidable freehand.

It's easy (to the extent that some people find it a problem) to get a camber with a jig - try it!

Unavoidable cambers from freehanding would seem unfortunate when the task requires a straight edge.

Personally I find the Eclipse jig an excellent, easy to use tool; I guess preferences vary. There seem
to have been very many approaches to sharpening over the years - read Moxon for an odd one!

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

............a camber..............it's unavoidable freehand.

Bit of a bummer if you're honing a chisel, shoulder plane or rebate plane and don't want a camber.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jacob]

............a camber..............it's unavoidable freehand.

Bit of a bummer if you're honing a chisel, shoulder plane or rebate plane and don't want a camber.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I was exaggerating slightly - it is easy both to do and to avoid.

 

[SpinDoctor]

a secondary bevel of say 30 deg on a 25 deg plane iron just means you only have to hone a tiny strip of metal next time you sharpen. Just saves time cos less metal

Yeah - grind at 25, sharpen at 30. This is an old, OLD, technique.


BugBear

That would be the stock standard way pretty much around the world to sharpen a tool by hand, find a hollow bevel and then put a secondary bevel on with your stone of choice... To be honest I don't understand why people keep trying to re-invent the wheel. But it that makes them happy I'm certainly not going to tell them differently. When it's a hobby, it's about what makes you happy. So if having multiple bevels makes you happy then go of your life.

 

[G S Haydon]

Thanks for the video link Andy, I had a quick view. The dude with the saws was good too. I will watch this evening.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

......You can either regrind 'little and often' (every five honings, say) or hone on and have a heavy session on the grinder now and again. .....

Or you do it the trad way and "regrind" with every sharpening and never go near a grind wheel except for repair/reshape etc.
I prefer this method because every sharpening is done the same way, with no slow-down fine-honing a progressively extending primary bevel, and then having to start again with a regrind.

Several ways are 'trad'. Another 'trad' way of sharpening is to grind a primary on a grinding wheel (often quite large and hand cranked, or apprentice cranked) and hone a secondary on a benchstone (see 'The Joiner and Cabinetmaker' republished by Lost Art Press for an account written in 1839). I suspect most 'trad' craftsmen would have used whatever was the quickest available method in whatever shop they happened to be working in.

Given that grinding is bound to be quicker than rubbing it off on a benchstone, even a coarse one, I strongly suspect it would be the preferred method if a grindstone was available.

Both methods work. Both will result in a good working edge if used with a little knowledge and some practice.

 

[Jacob]

............
Given that grinding is bound to be quicker than rubbing it off on a benchstone, even a coarse one, I strongly suspect it would be the preferred method if a grindstone was available..........

Well yes except there'd only be one or two big grindstones in a big workshop and none at all in smaller shops or on site, so freehand on a double stone was the default for everybody. A little and often. It's obvious really - it's practical, it's cheap, no extra kit needed, it's what everybody used to do, even school kids, any fool can do it (except Brent Beach and his fans of course :lol: ) *
Small bench grinders were strictly for metal work, not for sharpening.
And jigs are very recent - for the ever expanding amateur market.

*PS I think they probably can do it, they've just talked themselves out of it for some reason.

 

[bugbear]

And jigs are very recent - for the ever expanding amateur market.

Jigs are about as old as the Norton India stone you bang on about so much.

There's more than one way to sharpen, you know. Most people find a way that suits them.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

And jigs are very recent - for the ever expanding amateur market.

Jigs are about as old as the Norton India stone you bang on about so much.

Jigs were a novelty in 1980 - hardly anybody used them (I was there)

There's more than one way to sharpen, you know. Most people find a way that suits them.

BugBear

There are two basic way as old as the hills, going back to the stone age
1 you rub your tool up and down a bit of abrasive stone.
Or
2 you rub your abrasive stone up and down your tool

 

[bugbear]

Jigs were a novelty in 1980 - hardly anybody used them (I was there)

Jacob - you will eventually realise that your personal experience (ooh - 1980, very "trad" :lol: ) is quite a narrow sample. Try to widen your knowledge, possibly
by learning from others.

In the meantime, we'll start you on a fairly easy question: "when do you think Eclipse patented their jig?" Use both sides
of the paper, and write in black ink.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

I've no idea and I don't care. They were not widely used until relatively recently, even if they were invented in the stone age.
One bit of evidence is the complete absence of jigs from inventories or sales of old stuff. Where are the jigs of yesteryear?*
Similarly grindstones are relatively uncommon, whereas ordinary flat stones are two a penny - everybody had them and used them, not everybody had access to grindstones.

When were they patented BTW? Try and answer without your usual tedious schoolgirlish sarcasm.

*PS they are not entirely unknown - heres one on ebay.
But they were not widely used for the simple reason that it's quicker and easier to do it freehand. Thats all there is to it. They are for sharpening enthusiasts or ill advised timid beginners.

 

[David C]

One must of course take account of "exaggeration", at some point it will become missleading?

Hampton, first published in 1934, finds the Record 161 guide "of great value".

David Charlesworth

 

[Jacob]

One must of course take account of "exaggeration", at some point it will become missleading?

Hampton, first published in 1934, finds the Record 161 guide "of great value".

David Charlesworth

Nevertheless, they were not widely used, which is all I am saying.
The reason they were not widely used is that they aren't really as useful as they look.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

One bit of evidence is the complete absence of jigs from inventories or sales of old stuff. Where are the jigs of yesteryear?*

You have to be a bit careful here. You might conclude that people of yesteryear never used bench hooks. You don't see them on e-bay. I guess a jig can be just a bolt, block of wood or something else homemade and disposable. My father certainly had a Stanley jig in his drawer before the '80s, and it looked old then ! You are right in that he didn't often bother to use it though.

Similarly grindstones are relatively uncommon, whereas ordinary flat stones are two a penny - everybody had them and used them, not everybody had access to grindstones.

You do see a fair few of the smaller, hand cranked grinders up for sale. And even the bigger (say 2' diameter) wheels that run in a metal trough are not that uncommon. And if as suggested, you hone with an oilstone maybe 10 times between grinds, you might expect oilstones to be common - everyone had their own - and grinders might be shared. Just as I used to have my own oilstone as a teenage woodworker, but took my plane blades into school woodwork class when they needed a grinder.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

For practically every repetitive woodworking task I've had to do in my adult life I have attempted to make a jig of some description to aid me.
I'm sure there were equally intelligent people around centuries ago - to presume that jigs were not used because they were not sold is a non sequitur.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

This thread just brought back another memory from childhood in Sheffield. As well and the Fletcher's bread van, and the Ben Shaw's fizzy pop lorry, a mobile grinder used to come round the street every once in a while ringing his bell and yelling "Anything to grind !". So not owning a grinder did not necessarily mean never having tools re-ground !

 

[Benchwayze]

Although born in Rotherham.....there is some Scottish in the family

There's some Scotch in my family Rob; but I tend to drink it.

 

[MMUK]

I only asked if the number of bevels made a difference and if I was missing out on anything