Not quite plane sailing...

[Tasky]

With laminated pieces, if your lamination left you with some 1mm+ differences between boards, the same thing happens even when trying to plane along the length. One side on the low board, one side on the high, no shavey shavey.

I think that's mostly what it is - I've obviously not been able to glue up dead flat, so some boards have bowed slightly above others, meaning they're the high spots... but still no shavey shavey. I'm actually having to work my way across into the higher ones. Seems counter-intuitive, as I'm taking off even more from the lower boards to start with.

 

[Ttrees]

Tasky
I know you don't wanna go there, about my fire door rants and all that, but I advise you to at least
get two or three boards flat so you can at least check the other lengths against them.
You may want three, but two would probably do the trick.
You must be able to place them together without any gaps, and flip one around so your not just pairing two
planks together with the same bend in them making a laminated warped top.
Flipping the timber on one plank, will give you an idea if your doing so.

 

[Tasky]

Tasky
I know you don't wanna go there, about my fire door rants and all that,

If I happen to see a skip in Reading that is not part of the council's RE3 community recycling company, happens to have a not-buggered fire door in it (why else would it be in a skip?) and is owned by someone who will allow me to acquire it, then I promise to give it due consideration... including figuring out how to get it in my car for the 5 mile trip back home.
TBH, I'm more likely to score a pristine condition Record Plane for under £15 on eBay...

but I advise you to at least get two or three boards flat so you can at least check the other lengths against them.

That's what I'm working on.

You must be able to place them together without any gaps, and flip one around so your not just pairing two planks together with the same bend in them making a laminated warped top.

These are 8-foot lengths of 4x2 and the first time I've tried anything like it... I'm delighted that I've even gotten them to the point where there are no steps between the lengths!

The faces all met pretty darn flush, IMO, especially during a dry-run clamp-up. It's just the edge surfaces that were a bit uppy-downy-steppy and part of that was me gluing and mating the faces one at a time, instead of gluing them all and then mating - It meant I had less time to fettle them during clamping and the glue that made them so slippery and misaligned also started setting while I was still levelling things out with a rubber mallet. The joys of cold weather, I suppose.

My aprons came out somewhat better, but still need a bit of planing and both need to be taken out of twist a touch, which is where the non-shaving issue is more of an issue. Can't plane down the high spots if the high spots won't plane.

 

[Ttrees]

Cant shave off the high spots because of material deflection...
That's no fun making a bench without a bench, if your material is that flexible.
Hope you have fun soon, since that hurdle has been overcome by the sounds of it
Tom

 

[DBT85]

You'll get a happy warm feeling when you start chopping your mortises. I promise!

 

[Bodgers]

I need that kind of warm feeling in my workshop atm. It is freeeeezzzing....

 

[Tasky]

Cant shave off the high spots because of material deflection...

Not sure it's material deflection, as there's not really any discernible flex in the slab. It's just the plane sole not sitting flat on the bits I want to shave, for some reason. Hence planing the lower bits until the high spots start reducing.
It's mostly square by now...

I need that kind of warm feeling in my workshop atm. It is freeeeezzzing....

Aye, 'tis so.
I usually go in and potter about for 5-10 minutes, then try picking up a panel pin off the bench. If I can't pick it up, it's too cold for working and I go do something else in a warmer environment.

Well, I say bench... I have an old kitchen unit with a rotting bit of plasti-coated chipboard worktop that's serving as a bench for all my woodwork and mechanic projects.

 

[Ttrees]

Why would you expect the plane sit on a bump/twist etc ?
In this case you should be only knocking off the high spots, very short swipes
not taking shavings.
The plane wont cut into a low spot if your using it right, infact the only way that you
would be able to shave a low spot would be...
Using a short plane like a no.4, whilst skewing it at 45 degrees to effectively shorten the sole
whilst at the same time cranking that iron way too far out in hope that the blade does make contact
with the stock.
You need a reference Mr.Tasky, either a mental idea of one or a physical one...
I would advise the latter, as you wont get deflection near as much.
The plane is not a handheld belt sander, as in you cant hit a low spot wherever you want only...
you need to take all the high spots off to get down to that level.

It will all click when you have a solid thing to work on.
I would advise you not to be planing in a vise as this will take longer to understand this.


Tom

 

[thetyreman]

looking at the picture of your hand tasky, they look way too big for the no4, I have the same problem.

I'd suggest getting a longer plane, get a no 5 1/2 or no7, it's much easier to create the edge as well as the face, the extra weight means it takes less force to cut.

 

[Tasky]

In this case you should be only knocking off the high spots, very short swipes not taking shavings.

The big slab of wood is in-twist. It needs half the length down one side shaving off. That's according to may aluminium winding sticks, anyway. Doubtless I'm using them wrong, as well.

You need a reference Mr.Tasky, either a mental idea of one or a physical one...

I'm measuring/referencing across the width of the boards here, not the length. Where the crossbeams should go. And unless my Alu sticks and all three plane soles are all bendy as a sponge, they're a pretty reasonable reference, I'd think...

The bit of plank I'm trying to shave down is sticking up a good 1mm above all the others it's glued next to. Pretty sure that sticky-uppy bit is the high point, no...? :?

The plane is not a handheld belt sander, as in you cant hit a low spot wherever you want only... you need to take all the high spots off to get down to that level.

And yet three different plane soles all say this one bit is the high spot that I'm trying to shave down.

I would advise you not to be planing in a vise as this will take longer to understand this.

I don't have a vice that will hold about 70kg of wood, anyway.

 

[Ttrees]

The bit of plank I'm trying to shave down is sticking up a good 1mm above all the others it's glued next to. Pretty sure that sticky-uppy bit is the high point, no...?
.

It sounds like the whole area (as in, two or three feet)
around your high spot, which is 1mm higher than the immediate area
is proud of it, in the scheme of things, as in a plane, flat, a perfectly horizontal surface, imaginary reference line,
which explains your problem, if that makes sense
Its not a belt sander
In other words, your 1mm stickey out (high) bit is still a low spot in the scheme of things.

 

[MikeG.]

Have you tried planing across the grain, Tasky? I mean, at 90 degrees to the board? Vary that angle until it feels right, skew the plane, and you'll soon have the high spots off. Then you can clean up with the grain in the normal way.

 

[Tasky]

It sounds like the whole area (as in, two or three feet)
around your high spot, which is 1mm higher than the immediate area
is proud of it,

A good foot, at least, but only along the grain of this one board.
If I set the winding sticks across the width, they rock like a see-saw, pivoting on this very point.

In other words, your 1mm stickey out (high) bit is still a low spot in the scheme of things.

Have you tried planing across the grain, Tasky? I mean, at 90 degrees to the board?

It didn't work so well at 90º, but I did get some results 'throwing' the plane sideways in a shallow arc that crossed the grain at roughly.... ooh, I dunno... 30º?
It left some plane tracks, but they seem fairly easy to plane out in the usual fashion...

I dunno. Maybe I should try and soldier through it, see if it just 'comes together', as has been suggested.

 

[stoopiduk]

Sounds like we're putting together the same bench and encountering the same problems. I expect you did a better job of gluing up the laminate than I did, mind!
When trying to tame the top, it was the excess glue that seemed to be upsetting my plane, and scraping that off seemed to help. Even with most of the glue out of the way, many of my strokes were taking off next to sod-all. I just kept going, finding most success going across the work at around 45 degrees one way, then the next. The cuts I took were probably too fine, but it was an enjoyable process all in all. I figured if I was taking any material off, I was making a little progress. I'll have time to work on my planing technique once I've got a solid bench to work on.
I've done both sides of the top this way, and both are left with light track marks that I'll take out on a final planing, as I'm using the top as my temporary benchtop until it becomes my permanent one.
In drawing comparisons to how PS gets on in his videos, I expect he glued better than we did, and his laminated top was less wibbly.
First lesson I've learned well: be much more careful gluing up!
It was a great feeling putting together the first leg frame after a fun few hours of chiseling out mortises. Hope you're enjoying the project!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Why waste your life and planing the underside? It only needs to be flat where the frame meets it.

 

[Tasky]

I expect you did a better job of gluing up the laminate than I did, mind!

Oh, I wouldn't count on it...!!

I just kept going, finding most success going across the work at around 45 degrees one way, then the next. The cuts I took were probably too fine, but it was an enjoyable process all in all.

I'm holding the plane at 45º, but pushing it in line with the grain. That does take a shaving and more often than when having the plane straight on.

Why waste your life and planing the underside? It only needs to be flat where the frame meets it.

1/. It's good planing practice.
2/. Start as you mean to carry on.
3/. It also needs to be out of twist, which is where I'm getting the weird issues with what are supposedly the high spots.
4/. I'm also doing the secondary benchtop, wellboard, legs and two aprons, so pretty much everything needs planing flat, square and out of twist.

I'm probably just muddling through and it's going OK so far, but at this point it's more like hard work than hobbying fun.

 

[profchris]

I'm holding the plane at 45º, but pushing it in line with the grain. That does take a shaving and more often than when having the plane straight on.

That's because you've effectively made the plane shorter, so it gets into the hollows.

Try planing so that the plane travels at 30 degrees or so to the grain direction (note, one way will probably be easier than the other, so plane that way!). Take a slightly thicker shaving. Keep the plane level to where you want the surface to end up, though that's easier said than done. At first you'll just skim off spots, but each time you'll skim off a larger piece until eventually you get a shaving all the way across.

The reason for doing this is so you can take a thicker shaving (but don't go mad!). Thus you get the high spots down quicker. Once the surface is roughly level, go back to planing with the grain (planing in the easy direction!). To begin with you'll just hit the high spots, but they won't be very high now, so you'll soon get full shavings.

I'm just thinning down some guitar sides, and need to go from about 11mm to 2mm which is a lot of wood to remove (but less effort and safer than hand ripping the board). I start with a heavily cambered blade (really, really heavy camber, maybe 5 inch radius) at 30 degrees, then a more shallow cambered blade at 30 degrees, then the same plane with the grain, and finally a smoothing plane with very little camber. The workpiece is 800mm x 90 mm, takes about 10 mins planing doing it this way.

I believe you only have one plane so you will go slower, but give it a try.

 

[Ttrees]

Whether or not you need to plane cross grain is a matter of twist.
You should never skew the plane when planing though, unless you are finding it difficult to register a flat area of your plane on,
eg the very start of the board like Brian Holcombe shown on one of his vids.
Your lessening your chance of having a flat surface/getting long shavings if your making your plane effectively shorter.

Tom

 

[novocaine]

I've written a great big diatribe 3 times now, setting your plane, using a level, using the winding sticks, blar blar blar.

all of it is pointless, no one can diagnose your issues without standing next to you. yes you can learn how to plane by hand by yourself with trial and error, but it's a long slow process and you need to use scrap, not your new bench for it. you need someone to stand with you, show you those little tricks on marking high spots, setting an iron (I don't care how it's done or where the cap is, how flat the sole is or any of that, if someone shows you, it just clicks), using a bubble/straight edge and winding sticks, the edge of a plane as a reference, and all that good stuff that people take for granted and forget they know till they teach it to someone else. is there anybody from here local who is willing to pop round (bit far from me and I'm hardly and expert but would be happy to show people how I approach these sorts of problems) and spend an hour with you? the going rate round here is a brew.

it will be something simply that you just haven't thought of or have forgotten.

 

[Tasky]

Try planing so that the plane travels at 30 degrees or so to the grain direction (note, one way will probably be easier than the other, so plane that way!).

Part of the problem is in which way the grain had to go so I could fit the boards well enough for glue up.... that and the amount of flippin' knots, which don't help!
After a bit of trial and error I got the bowed up sections flattened down, so the rest will be cleaning up the tearout, track marks and twist with a (hopefully well-set) smoothing plane.

Now I know how the forum technology works, I might have to try and take some photos next time, to be sure I'm accurately describing the issue.

I believe you only have one plane so you will go slower, but give it a try.

Nope, got a 4, 4½ and a 5.

is there anybody from here local who is willing to pop round (bit far from me and I'm hardly and expert but would be happy to show people how I approach these sorts of problems) and spend an hour with you? the going rate round here is a brew.
it will be something simply that you just haven't thought of or have forgotten.

I'm trawling the Members list as we speak...!!