Norris question

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Sheik Hans

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Like lots of you i have been toying with the idea of making a shoulder plane .
So i have been looking for inspiration on all the known plane makers sites . Several things baffle me ,the main one is How does the Norris plane such as this one on ebay item no 320556920130 adjust ? i understand how KHoltey makes his work and i ve the seen Ray Iles adjuster for sale .Rays has a ring Is the original blade pinned ? The one in the picture has a screw but i suspect it isnt a screw as such > How does it work , i see nothing on the blade for it to adjust with , no slots , holes etc .
Is the blade removeable from the mouth end or the the wedge end ? I see some planes that do one or the other . i never see photo shots of the bits i need to look at .
The other thing is What is the dovetail angle on these planes ? 60deg ? I'm wondering if its an off the shelf milling cutter or a one off solid carbide job . if anyone has a Norris A7 i'd be grateful for some pics next to a ruler .I really think i might have a go at making something as i have access to a Bridgeport mill amongst other things .
Any help much appreciated .
 
The plane you are looking at adjusts the usual way - by tapping with a small mallet or hammer and wedging the blade in place.

The big screw is not part of any sort of adjusting mechanism - it's there to make a strong place to tap the back of the plane without risk of damaging the casting.

To remove the blade you would need to loosen the wedge (by tapping on the 'screw'), remove the wedge, and twist the blade slightly to withdraw it up and out at the top.

The mouth is set far too fine to drop the blade out downwards.
 
For what it's worth, don't get fooled by the whole adjuster hype, personally i believe they were and are a bit of a gimmick, and have little to do with a good plane. I often get really frustrated when people talk about backlash and the quality of an adjuster in a Norris type plane as if it mattered.

Any reasonably experienced lathe user will tell you that backlash is made irrelevant by someone who compensates for it. In the case of lathes, all you need do note the direction in which you are adjusting the tool(is the thread pushing or pulling) and then keep to a reference mark on the handwheel. It is similar with a plane adjuster. If you advance the knurled adjuster to point A, take note of where it is. Then turn it counterclockwise, firstly taking up the backlash, until it starts to back off the iron, and then continue to back off by enough so that you are well back from your point A. When you change back to clockwise, it will firstly rotate through however much backlash you've got , but then you just advance the blade to the exact point A which you started with. If you make sure you know which way your moving the blade and know the rotational position of the adjuster, then backlash could be twenty turns, it doesn't matter, you still advance +/- in relation to point A. On a shoulder plane iron, the snecked cutouts allow you to tap the iron backwards, to lessen the cut.
To be honest, most people who spend some time using both types, find that a wooden adjusterless plane, is far more precise and subtle than even the best Holtey adjuster. I would recommend getting an old timer to show you how to advance a blade with taps from a small hammer or mallet. Personally, like many people, i didn't get just how light a tap they mean when they say light. When i was learning with 19th C. moulding planes, an old carpenter from Northampton advised me that to adjust correctly, when you are approaching the blade taking a cut, if it is too hard for a pint glass, then it's too hard for a fine set on a plane iron. Funny example, but it got me to appreciate how sensitively you can tweak the cut. Lateral adjusting is as simple as tapping on one side of the iron or the other. It takes a while, but when you pick it up, it'll become automatic and you'll do it as easy as driving. I still use an old 4oz crosspein for most work, but a bench dog or even a bit of scrap steel will give you the ability to advance the iron by fractions of a thou.
Re the shoulder plane dovetail cutter, 60 works fine for me, as does 70. I did a couple of planes early on using 45, but the corners can become a bit accute and therefore difficult to fill during peening. Sorry for the long message, but i thought that i'd offer a couple of friendly tips that i would of loved when i did my first.
Get the tails to fit as closely as possible and you'll minimise the risk of those dreaded voids which ruin so many amateur D/T planes.

Use a light 8oz or 12oz ballpein, don't hit hard, very light, frequent taps helps you adapt quickly to the flowing metal.

Buy a good quality ball end punch to drive the metal into the corner and when you think you've done enough, take an extra 5-10 minutes, making sure you spread as much material toward and into the meeting lines.
A poorly clamped plane will move immediately when hit. If you can, make a peening block that holds the sides captive in recesses and bolts through the sideplate. You can add and take off extra clamps as you work, to make doubly sure that everything stays where you want it. Aluminium blocks, drilled and tapped for manifold studs work brilliantly.
Make a small protective guard from a small bit of scrap sheet metal or even cardboard and place this near where your peening to absorb the inevitable stray hammer blows. sounds trivial, but every maker learns that these marks take ages to remove if you're lucky and if you're not, then you might end up with voids from removing too much metal during clean up.
When you do clean up, a coarse file or belt can fatigue the brass or steel at the meeting edges of the pins/tails, resulting in tearout voids appearing. Switching to a finer grit in good time, when you've done the coarse tidying up, will take longer, but equally spending a nervous time, getting out deep scratches that didn't need to happen is no fun either.
Don't do the final lap of the sole without fitting the iron in, slightly backed off. The clamp or wedge on a shoulder plane will visually deflect the blade ramp when set for a cut, meaning that you'll have a humped sole if you lap without the blade fitted and tensioned.
Hope that helps and look forward to seeing some pics of the finished plane.
all the best, Nick.
 
Thanks for the detailed replies . The filing and peining advice is much appreciated . I was really confused as to how the original Norris adjuster fitted to the blade ,confused to the point i emailed Konrad Sauer who very kindly explained that the original blades had a screw attached to them so they sat in the adjuster. I dont know any old timers to show me anything where i live so a lot of it is trial and error . The protecting the finished item from stray hammer marks is also brilliant piece of advice .At present i am still trying to source the materials i want in small quantities so i think photos may be a long time coming . once again cheers for the advice
 
Hi Nick,

Well that little nugget about the 'old timer' puts me in baulk! At 71 I suppose I am an old timer, and the last time I used a wooden plane, (and/or an infill sans adjuster), was when Nelson climbed his column. (Well it was around 1950 to be honest!)

So I think I shall need help, as I am 'dreaming' up a project that requires a rounded sole plane. This will have to be a woodie, so someone is likely to be getting an enquiry about having one built. :wink:

Cheers
John
 
Fabulous page here http://www.xmission.com/~jry/ on building some infill planes in the Tools Section. The guy built an adjuster for one of them and has downloadable cad drawings for the planes as well.
Bought an adjuster from Ray Iles with the intention of going down the road/ slope, but never did anything about it.
 
Ooh, I'm looking for an adjuster. Are you still thinking of using it, or might you be interested in a swap for something shiny?
 
Hi Jason,

At some point in time I plan on using it. When I got the Anant my idea was that if I couldn't get anywhere with it I'd make an infill out of it (à la style of D. Cohen). That didn't happen, but another reason for not using it was the D2 blade I bought to go with it has the slot for the cap iron the standard way around. I never realised there was a difference until I looked into putting the two together.

I'll never make a full dovetailed one, but I'd still like to make a halfway house one at some stage, of maybe a wooden jointer with it the way some of the HNT Gordons are done.
 
NickUrquhart":26nydtqk said:
For what it's worth, don't get fooled by the whole adjuster hype, personally i believe they were and are a bit of a gimmick, and have little to do with a good plane. I often get really frustrated when people talk about backlash and the quality of an adjuster in a Norris type plane as if it mattered.

...
Agree.
The only norris adjuster I have had experience of is on my Veritas LA jack. It looks nice, is beautifully made, but doesn't work very well at all.
Setting the blade in and out is OK though it is much higher geared and coarser than the typical Stanley. The lateral adjuster is hopeless - you have to loosen the cap screw first and it is much too short - resulting also in high gearing and a coarse adjustment. Easier to tap the blade over with a small hammer.
One of the best features of the Stanley Bailey design is the very precise and reliable adjustment. A degree of backlash is acceptable - desirable in fact, as it gives feedback as it takes up the slack. Try a plane with zero backlash and you will see (or feel actually) what you are missing.

PS
It's for sale BTW click here.
Ignore what I just said about the adjuster!
I'm selling it because I want to try out the very similar smoother, and I can't really justify the vast amount of dosh that owning both would entail.
 
Mr G Rimsdale":20zr59sc said:
One of the best planes available, certainly the best I have ever used.

...this one is much better than I need.

Now there's a recommendation, and with an A2 blade too.

BugBear
 
bugbear":rce3my11 said:
Mr G Rimsdale":rce3my11 said:
One of the best planes available, certainly the best I have ever used.

...this one is much better than I need.

Now there's a recommendation, and with an A2 blade too.

BugBear
I think (so far) that A2 is probably a good thing for high angles, where the action is near scrape and the edge retention is really needed, but probably bad for low angles - which seems to be where all the problems are.
 
I have a Norris adjusters from Bristol Design and Ray Ilses - one of them is double threaded which makes for very fine, smooth adjustment.
Will have to dig them out to see which one it is?

Rod
 
There's some very helpful links posted now . the pdf cad file drawings explain an awful lot that is hard to visualise . thanks
 
Sheik Hans":59vtw23c said:
Thanks for the detailed replies . The filing and peining advice is much appreciated . I was really confused as to how the original Norris adjuster fitted to the blade ,confused to the point i emailed Konrad Sauer who very kindly explained that the original blades had a screw attached to them so they sat in the adjuster.

Huh? On the Norris A7 the blade is drilled with a series of holes that connect to a pin on the adjuster. The adjuster is a miniature of the smoother adjuster. See here for pictures:

This link takes you to the shoulder plane exhibit, click on the Norris section and scroll towards the bottom.

http://www.antiquetools.com/perm-col/ea ... index.html
 
Joel Moskowitz":3o4bry91 said:
Sheik Hans":3o4bry91 said:
Thanks for the detailed replies . The filing and peining advice is much appreciated . I was really confused as to how the original Norris adjuster fitted to the blade ,confused to the point i emailed Konrad Sauer who very kindly explained that the original blades had a screw attached to them so they sat in the adjuster.

Huh? On the Norris A7 the blade is drilled with a series of holes that connect to a pin on the adjuster. The adjuster is a miniature of the smoother adjuster.

Hmm. I would implicitly trust both your AND Konrad's expertise.

Is it possible you're talking different models or time periods, which might explain any differences in design?

BugBear
 
IT's possible but A7's were only made for a very short time. And I am pretty sure Konrad's version of the A7 has the mechanism I describe. The adjuster in the A7 has only a very short travel and there are multiple holes in the iron to allow for movement as the blade wears.
I'm guessing that in hearing how the adjuster worked from Konrad something was lost in translation.
 
My original post was to enquire how a Norris adjuster worked and how a Norris with no adjuster was adjusted . I understand how the spigot and hole version blade adjuster works .What i didnt understand was how the Norris "Banjo" adjuster worked ,which is not strictly accurate either . I understood how it adjusted but not how it attached to the blade . This was explained by Konrad for me that the chipbreaker or blade backing or whatever the technical term is has a cheesehead screw head that sits in the banjo and thus adjusts . If i have read my original post correctly .my question regarding the A7 was regarding the dovetail angle I'm sorry for the confusion this has caused . I'll try to write my post a little clearer next time .......I'm scared to ask anymore questions
 
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