No prices = no business!

[Anonymous]

I enquired of atkins and cripps their prices for some American Cherry.

I asked for a price list too.

They tell me there is no price list and the price depends on quantity. Eh?? I have no specific quantity in mind.

So, they cannot produce a price list with price breaks on it? Really?
Seems to me that the price probably varies between customers as well as quantities as it is not too hard to create a list:

American Cherry
£45 per cubic ft
£40 per cubic ft for 3+
£35 per cubic ft for 5+
etc. etc.

Most suppliers I have used have something like this available

As I have no exact requirement and wanted to decide on quantity based upon the various prices, i did not discuss this any further with them.

Is it just me, or is it unreasonable to conduct business in this way? (I don't buy from shops that don't display a price either :roll: )



Maybe Tesco should conduct business this way?

" Excuse me, how much are these tins of beans?"

"Sorry sir, you'll have to tell me how many cans you want and if you are buying any other shopping before I can tell you that" :twisted:

 

[lurker]

try Whitmores
Quote via e-mail

Not been myself (keep meaning to) but Motownmartin thinks they are good.

 

[ByronBlack]

I know what you mean Tony, EO Burton do that aswell, I just ask them for the base rate Cuft price and work from that, it's not usally too different, although they do go out of their way to find boards (off-cuts) that meet my cutting list and reduce the price accordingly. But it's still quite difficult to price a small project accurately.

 

[Kane]

Agreed - sadly it looks like I'm destined to make stuff out of plywood or mdf as a result.

 

[ByronBlack]

Kane - have you tried any of the mail order companies to get your wood? or even ebay is quite a simple way if you know how much you need.

 

[NickWelford]

What's the old adage - If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it........

 

[Shadowfax]

Tony, I quite agree with you. There is no way anyone can run a business without knowing the prices of the goods.
It seems they would rather you went away! Extraordinary!

SF

 

[Scrit]

Is it just me, or is it unreasonable to conduct business in this way? (I don't buy from shops that don't display a price either :roll: )

But you're not buying from a shop, nor for that matter from any form of retail outlet, you're buying from a trade supplier who sells maybe a few percent of their turnover to hobbyists, so why not learn how they do things rather than trying to make them behave like they're Tescos (Sheesh! You'll be asking them to take credit cards next :roll: :wink: ).

Traditionally account customers of timber merchants get better prices than cash customers, whilst price is dependent on quantity and in addition a bit of haggling. Even when dealing with firms I've never talked to before I find they will happily quote me a price for something like "5 cu ft of American cherry, 1in thick, no delivery required" and will also give me some indication of the point (say 10 or 20 cubes) at which they can do a better price. Possibly by asking them to start quoting stuff off their price list they may suspect that you're spying for a competitor, or perhaps they don't really want to deal with small orders (for example Timbmet North is like that these days with somethink like 25 cube/£500 minimum order and they're not alone).

When in Rome?

Scrit

 

[Anonymous]

[(Sheesh! You'll be asking them to take credit cards next :roll: :wink: ).

Scrit

And have them stop signing parchment receipts with their Quill ?????


Scrit. I regularly buy from Good Timber and Yandles and only use hardwood. Both treat me like a customer - if only atkins and cripps had heard of those :roll:

I don't want to change the way atkins and cripps do business. I am happy for them not to receive any money from me :wink:

Even when dealing with firms I've never talked to before I find they will happily quote me a price for something like "5 cu ft of American cherry, 1in thick, no delivery required"

That is my point. I don't want to talk to them! I don't want a quote from them! I am all grown up now and can count on all my fingers and most of my toes, and so can work out the price myself if they display the cost per cu ft or cu m on their website :roll:

 

[Scrit]

That is my point. I don't want to talk to them! I don't want a quote from them! I am all grown up now and can count on all my fingers and most of my toes, and so can work out the price myself if they display the cost per cu ft or cu m on their website :roll:

Are you aware that certain timber products are on a spot price basis and can change daily or weekly (example: Baltic birch plywood)? Asking companies who do 95% plus of their trade through reps, on the phone or face to face to set-up and keep a web site updated in the face of ever-shifting daily stock availability is asking a lot from them in return for very little margin, especially in a market where profit margins are traditionally not the best. When were you last in a timber yard with a computer system? They do exist, but only the very large ones because ther margins simply aren't there to support them! So if you find someone willing to do it, great, but they'll probably be either an outfit selling a very limited range of products (e.g. British Hardwoods) or someone selling at highish prices. I feel you are trying to argue for the trade to change itself to capture another few percent of the notional market when one trade rep pulling down a supply contract to a large shopfitting firm can bring in more turnover in a couple of days work than all the small counter sales add up to in a year. Timber is predominantly a bulk, raw product market, so as I say, when in Rome.......

Scrit

 

[Kane]

Kane - have you tried any of the mail order companies to get your wood? or even ebay is quite a simple way if you know how much you need.

Not yet - waiting for the bank account to recover from the hammering it's had recently lol

Any mail order companys you'd suggest?

Had a scan on the bay searching for "wood" and "timber" got a few hits - any search strings you'd suggest?

 

[ByronBlack]

Kane, I would mostly look in the following categories:

Crafts > Woodworking

and

Home & Garden > DIY Materials > Wood/ Timber

The sellers to look out for are:

Wadkin1 (he does some beautiful timber - very large planks and very reasonable prices, I got 12ft of cedar from him for a good price.)

tjg1949 (aka Gibson Craftwood - He has lots of off-cuts of decent sizes, I recently got a bulk load of Iroko staves for just £8!!)

raburton68he

bell300875 (aka Bella's Wood Supplies - I won a lovely spalted maple bookmatched board which will look lovely as a worktop! They have some really nice timber)

Paul Conroy (aka Scottish Hardwoods - Sells boards of sycamore for just £24 a cubic foot. I took delivery of a very large 1.5" board today, only took two days to come down from aberdeen, very nice wood, and sourced locally!! Highly recommended).

There's a couple of others that i've bought from but can't think of the names of hand.

Hope that helps a litte - I think it's good buying this way because you can pick up small amounts of off-cuts for very little money, and usually the pieces are large enough to make almost anything from a small box to a table.

as for mail order, the only that springs to mind that has a good reputation is S.L Hardwoods. Maybe others can give you more mail order yard recommendations..

 

[Bean]

Scrit interesting,
I cannot wonder how anybody in business can operate on an account basis without prices, I would severely discipline anybody within my business if they did that.
If a business cannot tell you a price for the goods you are asking them to supply you have to think that they are not being honest, and yes prices will vary between customers, but there is always a base price and to think that there is not is foolhardy

 

[Kane]

Cheers Byron I'll have a proper look tonight (may get a chance to buy something, SWMBO is feeling happy 'cos the septic tank is fixed)

 

[Martingchapman]

Is it just me, or is it unreasonable to conduct business in this way? (I don't buy from shops that don't display a price either :roll: )

But you're not buying from a shop, nor for that matter from any form of retail outlet, you're buying from a trade supplier who sells maybe a few percent of their turnover to hobbyists, so why not learn how they do things rather than trying to make them behave like they're Tescos (Sheesh! You'll be asking them to take credit cards next :roll: :wink: ).

Traditionally account customers of timber merchants get better prices than cash customers, whilst price is dependent on quantity and in addition a bit of haggling. Even when dealing with firms I've never talked to before I find they will happily quote me a price for something like "5 cu ft of American cherry, 1in thick, no delivery required" and will also give me some indication of the point (say 10 or 20 cubes) at which they can do a better price. Possibly by asking them to start quoting stuff off their price list they may suspect that you're spying for a competitor, or perhaps they don't really want to deal with small orders (for example Timbmet North is like that these days with somethink like 25 cube/£500 minimum order and they're not alone).

When in Rome?

Scrit

Scrit,
I may be going a little off the thread here but can you tell me how you work out you need 5 cu ft of timber.
I don't mean converting linear measures to cubic, I can do the maths, what I don't know is how you convert the cutting list into cubic measures.
For example, the cutting list may call for 6 pieces at 2ft x 4ft, 2 at 1ft x 6ft and 1 at 6" x 5ft all 1 in thick finished sizes.
By my maths I recon the 6 pieces equal 4 cu ft, the 2 pieces equal 1 cu ft and the single piece equals 0.2 cu ft, adding this all together I get 5.2 cu ft.
Of course there is a need to allow some waste, does the amount depend on the timber species or in what form you are buying it (waney edge is a term I have heard) or both?
Lets assume you allow 30% waste so on 5.2 cu ft this would be 1.73 cu ft so the total now is 6.93 cu ft, take this as 7 cu ft.
Would I call the timber merchant and ask them for a price on 7 cu ft of Species Name at 1" thick.
If I was happy with the price would I then give them my cutting list (as above) pay the money and await delivery.

Any help you or anyone else with experience of doing this can give would be most welcome.

Regards - Martin Chapman.

 

[BigMac]

<i>Lets assume you allow 30% waste so on 5.2 cu ft this would be 1.73 cu ft so the total now is 6.93 cu ft, take this as 7 cu ft.
Would I call the timber merchant and ask them for a price on 7 cu ft of Species Name at 1" thick.</i>

I thought 30% waste was low for rough cut, added to which I thought you were supposed to calculate waste off the rough. i.e. buying 7cu ft and expecting 30% waste you would only expect 4.9 cu ft of usable?

BigMac

 

[MooreToolsPlease]

Martin, thats basically how I order my timber.
To be honest though, if you ask for 7 cu ft you will never get 7 cu ft.
its usually a bit over.
I have a price list from the supplier, but its only good as an estimate as the final price is based upon the actual timber you receive.
a lot of the big timber yards wont go through the stock picking out the best boards for you,
they just get the minimum number of planks that get you to the cu ft you have asked for.
I have been to yandles and this seems a shop mainly for the hobbyist.
I haven't looked at good timber yet to see what their outfit is like.
I dont know of a single timber yard who will go and measure each board in the stock pile for you so that you can optimise it best.
Thats why a quote will be given, because that will be taken from the available stock.
WIth alot of the timber I buy I typically allow as much as 50% or even 60% wastage.

 

[DomValente]

'fraid not Martin, you give them your cutting list and they tell you how much it will cost, 30% on waney edge is, in my opinion low.

Dom

 

[Scrit]

.....can you tell me how you work out you need 5 cu ft of timber?

I use a spreadsheet, then add a wastage factor - 25 to 30% on S/E stock, up to 50% on W/E. Some species, like European walnut, are a nightmare and for those you frequently have to allow 70 to 100% (that's an additional 70 to 100%, but then European walnut is almost always waney edge whilst American black walnut is invariably square edged with lower wastage, however, the Yanks have taken to steaming the stuff to disguise the sapwood so you have to watch out for sappy boards as well). Wastage factors are gleaned from personal experience, I'm afraid, which is why it's worth keeping a project notebook or diary to record the details of each and every job you undertake. Many yards will actually tell you what wastage they think you should expect on a given batch of a given species, but it's at best a guesstimate and can't take into account your own circumstances. The other thing you may need to allow more for is sapwood. Again, ask the question and so long as it's specific I find they'll answer it.

I cannot wonder how anybody in business can operate on an account basis without prices, I would severely discipline anybody within my business if they did that.

Someone rings a yard to ask for a quote on European walnut and says. "I need 5 cubes of 1in European walnut for collection, some of the boards need to be 6ft long. Is the walnut waney edge, what wastage factor do you think I should apply and how long are the boards and what sort of width are they?" They get an answer, "That'll run about £53/cube + VAT, so approximately £265. It's all 16 to 20in wide by 8ft long, waney both edges and you'd probably need 80% wastage on it". Quick mental calculation tells you that you'll have two feet over on the 8ft boards so to be on the safe side you order 6 cubes. You arrive and the yard has pulled boards totalling 6.5 cubes (they'll generally err onthe over side rather than the under) and has a bill for £325 + VAT for you which is what they invoice you. In reality there's nearly 7 cubes in it because of the way the mill measures. Next week that price may well be £48/cube or £70/cube depending on what the supply situation is, and because many hardwoods come in odd shaped waney-edge sizes you'll almost never get an exact amount. For that you need to start buying American hardwoods which come square edged so they can stuff more in a square container. What is your problem with that? As an engineer I don't think you'd ever dare say that steel or plastics distributors should publish their price lists on the net, and from experience they don't (and people don't think of them as dishonest doing that, do they?), so why do you think that timber merchants should? After all theirs is NOT a retail business, and that is how the timber trade works. Either get used to it or try another hobby because it won't change it's ways in a hurry

Timber prices are driven by a combination of supply, demand, weather, mill capacity and fashion (yes what M&S or Boots are doing in their shops radically hikes the price of the "in" timber)! This means that the price for a given plank or board may well vary week to week (try the example of Baltic birch and you'll see what I mean).

Personally, I never have too much problem in getting a price out of a merchant and in negotiating a better deal many times (normally based on extra species/higher quantity) but I don't expect the merchant to waste his time calculating what I want on what is often a piddling little order to him (and half my orders com into that category as well). If it helps the deal I'll buy more stock opr some of another species "for stock", but that is done at the potential expense of holding surplus stock - like the 1/2 tonne of 3in and 4in Welsh ash I got rid of three weeks ago which I'd had in stick for nearly 5 years! What Tony seems to expect is to be given a graded price on the Internet with discounts at low points. Take it from me, most yards only start offering discounts when you are either (a) a regular account customer and/or (b) you buy in quantities of £500 or above. That's how the trade has operated seemingly forever.

Scrit

 

[Sgian Dubh]

The retail end of rough sawn timber sales possibly accounts for about 1% of all timber sales. It's not really a surprise that timber merchants aren't very interested in servicing the needs of customers that buy so very little. Slainte.