Newly made oak windows and condensation

[JimF.]

Clothes dry very quickly even in winter, thanks to the de-humidifying effect

I hadn't thought of that before - that's all a de-humidifier is: a cold (cooled) thing over which air is blown! The cool, drained window is a beautifully low tech and elegant way of doing it.

 

[Jacob]

Clothes dry very quickly even in winter, thanks to the de-humidifying effect

I hadn't thought of that before - that's all a de-humidifier is: a cold (cooled) thing over which air is blown! The cool, drained window is a beautifully low tech and elegant way of doing it.

Exactly.
It may seem a bit random but actually it is controllable - curtains, shutters etc will slow/stop it. In any case it will only work when condensation is imminent due to temperature/humidity differences i.e. it stops working when you don't need it.
I've also found (entirely accidentally) that you can accelerate it, as follows:
We had some roller blinds made up but one was too short. Put it up low anyway but it doesn't cover the top 12" of the window. I noticed later that this window produces much more condensation than the other one in the same room, the only difference being the blind. I think the badly fitting blind makes a reverse chimney effect and accelerates cold air downwards past the window, dumping more moisture in the process.
I think there is scope here for a controllable passive dehumidifier - instead of a clear glass make it black (more radiation) or otherwise more conductive, box it in, with control vents top and bottom.

 

[Graham Orm]

Aren't we completely missing out he heat loss issue here? The whole point of double glazed draught proof windows.

 

[Jacob]

Draughts don't come into it - single glazing can be 100% draught proof. Dehumidifiers use energy, whether passive or active. Be interesting to calculate the relative running costs. DG is notoriously uneconomical, so I'd put my money on single glazing, especially if it saves having to use a dehumidifier or a tumble drier.

PS and come to think - if you had just one small (?) passive de-humidifier in each room you would not get condensation on the other DG windows. Or air piped to a larger one on the north side of the building

 

[Graham Orm]

DG is notoriously uneconomical,

Expand on this please Jacob

 

[CHJ]

Well my house makeover double glazing made the rooms more liveable for a few weeks extra spring and autumn, but I doubt that if I had the nerve to check they have proved economical.
5 yr guarantee on 20+ something mm glazing in 10 new frames, first failure at 6yrs, 80% have now been replace and others now failing.
Suspect original glass and replacement cost after 20 yrs must be in the order of two complete years heating oil costs.

Now very large old fashioned 10mm? units fitted in main living room when house build 62-63 are still sound as are the odd panels removed in French door frame changes and now patching up greenhouse or stacked up the garden just in case they may be of use, as are the small gap budget units I fitted in conservatory nearly 30 yrs ago.

So much for advances in technology and quality control/workmanship.

 

[Jacob]

DG is notoriously uneconomical,

Expand on this please Jacob

You could do the calcs on your own windows for a start. Or google around "is DG worth it?" etc.
Typically the payback (value fuel saving) on a new installation works out at in excess of 15 years, which isn't brilliant, but rapidly gets worse (no saving whatsoever) if you have a few set backs like Chas's above, which are very typical.
Insulation is much better value for money and should be the big priority.
Of the various options for increasing energy efficiency of the typical house, DG is one of the least effective.

 

[MMUK]

DG is notoriously uneconomical,

Has anyone said otherwise?

The biggest factor for having double/triple glazing that my customers tell me is noise reduction and lower maintenance. Very few these days expect to recoup their money within ten years.

 

[Jacob]

DG is notoriously uneconomical,

Has anyone said otherwise?

Well yes the whole emphasis has been on energy saving, which is proving elusive.

The biggest factor for having double/triple glazing that my customers tell me is noise reduction and lower maintenance. Very few these days expect to recoup their money within ten years.

Noise reduction yes, lower maintenance ? Most installations start to fail within 10 years so replacement becomes the issue. I'd call that higher maintenance.

 

[MMUK]

DG is notoriously uneconomical,

Has anyone said otherwise?

Well yes the whole emphasis has been on energy saving, which is proving elusive.

The biggest factor for having double/triple glazing that my customers tell me is noise reduction and lower maintenance. Very few these days expect to recoup their money within ten years.

Noise reduction yes, lower maintenance ? Most installations start to fail within 10 years so replacement becomes the issue. I'd call that higher maintenance.

Who has been putting this energy saving emphasis on things? I haven't and it's never been one of my selling points.

Please would you explain what part of these installations fail within ten years? I agree in the infancy days of uPVC there were issues with colour fastness and the sealants used on glass units but things have improved no end.

As far as general maintenance goes for uPVC, a wash down with soapy water every six months or so and some 3-in-1 oil on hinges and locks every three months, occasional blowing out of drainage holes and that's it. You don't have to sand down and re-paint or stain every few years.

You'll find that the majority of "failures" are caused by either poor installation methods or misuse.

 

[Jacob]

Has anyone said otherwise?

Well yes the whole emphasis has been on energy saving, which is proving elusive.

The biggest factor for having double/triple glazing that my customers tell me is noise reduction and lower maintenance. Very few these days expect to recoup their money within ten years.

Noise reduction yes, lower maintenance ? Most installations start to fail within 10 years so replacement becomes the issue. I'd call that higher maintenance.

Who has been putting this energy saving emphasis on things?

Everybody except you it seems. It's widely regarded as the whole point and promoted as such. I guess you have realised it's boll*x too.

..
Please would you explain what part of these installations fail within ten years?

Read Chas's post above. There are thousands of stories just the same. There is a tendency to blame the old as though the new is better, but I doubt it.Many people seem to think they are just unlucky, not realising that everybody elses installations fail too.

....You don't have to sand down and re-paint or stain every few years..

Instead you have to replace whole, or parts in the short term.

 

[MMUK]

Instead you have to replace whole, or parts in the short term.

If the product is installed correctly and the hardware used is not cheap crap then, with the routine maintenance I mentioned above being carried out, there is absolutely no reason why a uPVC installation should not last at least twice the ten year guarantee before it "needs" replacing. Even then this is usually due to the fact that parts become obsolete.

For instance, I only fit fully reinforced Rehau profiles and Eurocell roof systems. I use Austenitic s/steel hinges and Mila handles & hinges with Winkhaus door locks and Maco shootbolt window locks. These are all the best you can get. I also use Saint Gobain glass for sealed units as its much better quality than Pilkington.


And who is to say that you won't have to replace casement hinges or stays on a timber window within the same time frame?

 

[JustBen]

Why is it that nearly every thread that is 3 or more pages long has Jacob arguing with someone?

No wonder you were banned from several forums.

You're like a dog with a bone.

Give your fingers a rest.

 

[Graham Orm]

.....
Jacob.
The drains that you describe are on the outside of the window and pass through a chamber that makes up the outer wall of the frame. It's designed to allow condensation from within the frame (not within the building) to escape, but more importantly any rainwater that gets into the rebate where the sealed units sit. If they were allowed to sit in frozen water they would fail straight away. There is no passage of water from inside to outside on any extrusion I have ever used in 20 years of fitting them. Nor have I ever seen such a thing in wooden windows. Obviously this could be a regional thing, I'd be interested in seeing a pic if you can find one? :wink:

OK I'm not sure about plastic windows I've hardly been near one. I knew they had weep holes though.

With trad windows drainage is a given - sashes drain via the meeting rail gap and by the bottom sash to staff bead gap. These should never be draft proofed. Casements drain via the bottom rail similarly. French windows (i.e. yer actual trad ones in France) often have a drainage detail much as I've described. Many larger buildings have drainage collection channels and means of taking the water outside. Here frinstance the windows sat on a stone cill with a channel cut just inside, (mirroring the drip channel you'd find in a stone lintel outside) taking water to a short length of 1/2" lead pipe sticking out just under the centre front of each window. In other buildings I've seen timber drainage channels integral with the frames.This sort of detail was universal, commonplace and is easily overlooked - there isn't much to look at!

 

[MMUK]

Come on Graham, do you really expect me to read EVERYTHING Jacob posts? Does anyone read all that he posts? :wink:

Anyway, fair enough. We're talking about completely different animals. (hammer)

 

[Jacob]

Why is it that nearly every thread that is 3 or more pages long has Jacob arguing with someone?

No wonder you were banned from several forums.

You're like a dog with a bone.

Give your fingers a rest.

I'm not having an argument with anybody as far as know, I'm just saying what I think and answering questions arising. It's called "discussion".
I know some people don't like discussion - they'd rather go along with the herd and bleat the same opinions in unison. :lol:

 

[JustBen]

You're doing it again.

You say what you think, then you say everyone else is wrong and you continue until they get bored or annoyed.

Your last few posts are of no help to the OP.

You are clearly a man with a vast array of knowledge but a lot of that gets overshadowed by your following posts.

Why can't you just share your knowledge about the question/s being asked and let them do with your information as they will.

It's not just you, there are others but your name comes up a lot.

It's dragging the forum down.

 

[Jacob]

Why are you trying to join in a thread where you have nothing useful or interesting to say?

 

[Tony Spear]

Another point about the usual uPVC windows - they look bloody horrible!

We've got 200/300 year old cottages in this village with casement DG windows with those awful mitred corners and they stick out like a sore thumb!

 

[MMUK]

Another point about the usual uPVC windows - they look bloody horrible!

We've got 200/300 year old cottages in this village with casement DG windows with those awful mitred corners and they stick out like a sore thumb!

I agree on period properties they look out of place, especially in white.