newbie needs to understand....

[sunnybob]

.... why all bladed tools are sold in an unusable condition?

Plane, chisel, what have you, i pay good money for a tool and the first thing I read or see is "of course the blade must be sharpened before use"
What the .......????

Cant the factory add a 5 degree angle to the 25 its already shaped on the chisel blade? Are their machines not up to it?
What the .....?

I buy a bandsaw and even the guy who sold it to me said "the blade supplied is not good quality.
What the .....?

i bought a set of hand chisels and gouges (admittedly cheap) and they wont cut paper!
What the ......?

Are you getting where I'm coming from yet?
I need to learn sharpening skills before I can learn wood skills. What the ......!!

Isnt it time all the woodworkers got together and refused to buy stuff unless it was sharp and fit for purpose?

rant over (for now) 8)

 

[JohnPW]

I need to learn sharpening skills before I can learn wood skills. What the ......!!

It might seem surprising but it's true! Unless you send your tools away to be sharpened by someone else, you will have to learn to sharpen eventually.

If you you go on a formal woodworking course at college or do an apprenticeship, one of the first things you learn is sharpening.

As for tools being supplied ground but not honed, I suppose it's partly tradition, lower cost and the expectation that the user will sharpen them.

 

[AndyT]

It's like this:

A cutting tool is much like a pencil - it could be supplied sharpened, but that would be no great advantage, as it would still need to be re-sharpened after every few hours of use. So nobody can really use a chisel unless they are set up to sharpen them. Indeed, for a woodworker, not being set up to sharpen tools would be as ridiculous as an artist being unable to sharpen a pencil. Sharpening edge tools is just part of using them.


What's more, the factory sharpening would add cost, for no benefit.

 

[heimlaga]

It's like this:

A cutting tool is much like a pencil - it could be supplied sharpened, but that would be no great advantage, as it would still need to be re-sharpened after every few hours of use. So nobody can really use a chisel unless they are set up to sharpen them. Indeed, for a woodworker, not being set up to sharpen tools would be as ridiculous as an artist being unable to sharpen a pencil. Sharpening edge tools is just part of using them.


What's more, the factory sharpening would add cost, for no benefit.

I agree!
Every woodworker must be able to sharpen his tools all the time. All money spent on a factory made first sharpening would be wasted money.

In Finland in the old days chisels were usually sold without handles. If you needed a plane you bought an iron and made the rest of it. If you needed a saw you bought a saw blade and made the rest.

 

[sdjp]

If you ever get into carving, it's even worse than that! The majority of carving tools are supplied with a bevel angle way too blunt, and it's positivity normal to have to spend some time regrinding it into the proper angle, and (normally) adding an inner bevel.

Theories abound, but my best guess is that if supplied with a fine angle on then, and someone wants to pound on some Lignum Vitae, then they will wreck the cutting edge. Whereas if someone want to pare away some lime, but the tool makes a mess of it, the tool still looks as it was.

Hence, an inexperienced user would return the tool in the first instance (claiming defective), but in the second be more likely to blame technique.

Given that, I submit, the second scenario is ever so slightly more common, it surely would make sense to grind for that, but alas…

There is a degree of user customisation in the exact angle for the outer bevel (which, then, affects the inner bevel angle, to maintain the desired edge geometry), as it depends to a small degree on hand size, but it could still be a lot closer.

Cheap gouges seem to be even worse - I've seen one that was supplies with a 40 degree bevel angle. No doubt intended for all those that love carving in Ipe or something….

 

[sunnybob]

okay, i see the need to be able to resharpen, obviously, but if I buy a hacksaw blade, should I expect it not to cut? Does Stanley supply blunt blades for their knives?
i am a TOTAL beginner, I am on my own with no clubs or night classes within a couple thousand miles.
i have brand new tools that are totally useless to me, and without Youtube, i wouldnt even know why.
If the blade was set to the normal working limits, I could get it back to that once it stopped cutting.

 

[Carl P]

One of those chicken & egg/catch 22 situations - 'I don't have sharp tools, so I don't know what sharp is' - I am in the same situation, but possibly further down the road. To learn how sharp a plane iron/ chisel can be I'd recommend the scary sharp method, with a jig, when done fairly carefully it's difficult to get wrong, and was for me, something of a revelation - now I use an oilstone freehand, but that's another can of worms!!

Best thing is to ask here and ignore the factional fighting!

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[sunnybob]

is this any good?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-SHARP-EDG ... 27f8a16f3e

 

[JohnPW]

Best keep on topic, I think.

Start a new thread if you want advice about sharpening or stones. Or search the forum, plenty of posts already posted! :mrgreen:

 

[blackrodd]

is this any good?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-SHARP-EDG ... 27f8a16f3e

Pop Paul sellers sharpening on yo u tube and just follow the man.
He is very good, even on the cheaper brands.
HTH Regards Rodders

 

[yetloh]

All good advice here. You just have to bite the sharpening bullet and Paul Sellers is good starting point.

What has not been mentioned and deserves comment is why all reasonably priced planes will fail to work properly without substantial work. The answer is one of cost, but what other consumer product is sold in a substandard state on the basis that the customer will have to put i work if he wants it to work properly? You either have to put up with it or buy premium produts from the likess of Veritas, Clifton and Lie Nielsen but that's a big ask for someone starting out who doesn't have the knowledge to even form a judgement about what he really needs. ost of us started from that position and often ended up buying twice, but at least the internet puts good advice at your fingertips.

Best of luck and post some projects here so we can see how you progress. Perseverence and patience are the keys.

Jim

 

[Scouse]

If the blade was set to the normal working limits, I could get it back to that once it stopped cutting.

As a quick search for 'sharpening' will show you, there are no normal working limits. What is right for one woodworker will not work for another, vis. round/ flat/ hollow/ multiple bevels.

In my experience, most reasonable quality new blades are in the ball park of sharp out of the box and can be quickly honed, if needed, and up and running. Worry about more complicated stuff as you get into it.

With reference to your original post;

.... i bought a set of hand chisels and gouges (admittedly cheap) and they wont cut paper!

They are not designed to cut paper. Use scissors.

But more importantly,

I need to learn sharpening skills before I can learn wood skills.

Um... Yeah you do, for the simple reason that even if the chisel/ plane blade comes sharp enough from the factory to cut a hole in the fabric of space-time, after a couple of hours digging around in hard maple, you will need to sharpen it.

Follow blackrodd's advice.

 

[jimi43]

I think another analogy is better.

Would you buy a car or motorbike and shoot out on a motorway without learning to drive? :mrgreen:

The reason why the "s" word is so contentious is that everyone has to learn how to do it...everyone is an expert...and everyone is right. But one common thread runs right the way through...ALL of these woodworkers will eventually need to learn how to...and the results are often a reflection of experience along with the things made with the tools.

Comparing hacksaws and Stanley knives is not really fair...they are disposable and therefore would never need to be sharpened..rather they would be thrown away and replaced with another...such is the nature of the tool.

There are examples of most tools where the cutting edge is disposable...even planes...but they usually do not perform close to a well sharpened sturdier one.

I'm afraid it's a fact of life that learning a hobby or profession requires certain basic knowledge...as does driving a car. :wink:

Jim

 

[Biliphuster]

I agree with the majority here about sharpening, even a perfectly sharpened edge will break down after an afternoons hard work and require sharpening, it's just the reality and the sooner you learn how to sharpen the better.

What I cannot abide is varnished handles. Surely if you run a company that makes tools you know varnish is hateful stuff to work with? Sell them unfinished and save me the trouble of sanding off a nasty thick film, you'd even save money! I can only imagine it keeps them looking nice in the shop or something.

 

[sunnybob]

I obviously opened up what is called a "what oil thread" on my motorcycle forums. Oh well, another learning curve in woodwork (lol). i accept the advice, but still think you are all too soft on the manufacturers regarding what to a cnc grinder would be another three seconds in the making process.

I am hoping to learn something this saturday as I will be in the UK, and am going to the open day at Yandles woodyard in somerset. Havent been there in 30 years, I expect its changed a bit.

 

[Inoffthered]

but still think you are all too soft on the manufacturers regarding what to a cnc grinder would be another three seconds in the making process.

.

Even if they did you would still need to master the art of sharpening but it is a skill that becomes as satisfying as wooodworking. I am not an expert by any means but get great satisfaction from getting a mirror finish on a chisel or plane blade. It also gives you something to do if you are waiting for glue to dry on a woodworking project.

I bought some old chisels on fleabay and practiced on them.

 

[Kalimna]

Scouse, slightly off topic, but following up on your post, perhaps you should start an alternative method to Scary Sharp, with such fineness of edge that it could be named 'Subtle' Sharpening???

Cheers + apologies for random book link...
Adam

 

[jimi43]

......comes sharp enough from the factory to cut a hole in the fabric of space-time

My vote for quote of the month! Priceless!

Bob..what part of Cyrus do you live in? I was in Pathos for a while working....I'll swap you for winters here anytime you want!

How about a week's sharpening tuition free...you just pay flights!? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Jimi

 

[sunnybob]

......comes sharp enough from the factory to cut a hole in the fabric of space-time

My vote for quote of the month! Priceless!

Bob..what part of Cyrus do you live in? I was in Pathos for a while working....I'll swap you for winters here anytime you want!

How about a week's sharpening tuition free...you just pay flights!? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Jimi

Jim, thats a quote right there. " in PATHOS" describes the place nicely ( =D> =D> :lol: :lol: )
i'm up the other end, in the countryside not far from famagusta. Trust me, you wouldnt want to spend a winter here. I was shocked to discover they had them.
Zero degrees doesnt sound too bad to you lot, but try it in a concrete and clay block villa with 3 metre ceilings, glass sliding doors everywhere, no cavity walls, insulation, OR central heating! No wonder I'm a Mr.grumpy (hammer)

Midday temps are around 20 at the moment, but as the sun drops...... down to 8c before T time.
Luckily the real winter is only jan / feb. then we're into spring.

I'm flying to london in about 7 hours from now, apparently its 5c there now. BRRRRR. But at least my kids houses have C.H. 8)

Get yourself a package holiday, and I'll buy the beers after each sharpening lesson, hows that for a compromise?

 

[jimi43]

......comes sharp enough from the factory to cut a hole in the fabric of space-time

My vote for quote of the month! Priceless!

Bob..what part of Cyrus do you live in? I was in Pathos for a while working....I'll swap you for winters here anytime you want!

How about a week's sharpening tuition free...you just pay flights!? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Jimi

Jim, thats a quote right there. " in PATHOS" describes the place nicely ( =D> =D> :lol: :lol: )
i'm up the other end, in the countryside not far from famagusta. Trust me, you wouldnt want to spend a winter here. I was shocked to discover they had them.
Zero degrees doesnt sound too bad to you lot, but try it in a concrete and clay block villa with 3 metre ceilings, glass sliding doors everywhere, no cavity walls, insulation, OR central heating! No wonder I'm a Mr.grumpy (hammer)

Midday temps are around 20 at the moment, but as the sun drops...... down to 8c before T time.
Luckily the real winter is only jan / feb. then we're into spring.

I'm flying to london in about 7 hours from now, apparently its 5c there now. BRRRRR. But at least my kids houses have C.H. 8)

Get yourself a package holiday, and I'll buy the beers after each sharpening lesson, hows that for a compromise?

Ooops! I'm doing Freudian typos now! LOL! But you're right...the tourists kinda spoil the place.

I sort of like that weather...I like winter but I also like it short..after a few days "change of scenery" I've had enough!

It did get a tad hot in Paphos in the summer though...but I do like Cyprus.....

Unfortunately ALFIE would probably not be allowed on any aircraft (if they have any sense!)....so travelling abroad is out for me at the moment. Give me time to visit the UK which I have sadly neglected in my life!

Good luck with your trip to Yandles...it will be fun!

Jimi