New Veritas plane UKW exclusive announcement

[wizer]

firmly pitched in Holtey country

Oh, really? I'm not sure Mr Holtey would agree. His planes are lovingly hand made from scratch, to his own design. Veritas planes are mass produced to a price. Both may be high quality planes, but I do think the leagues are different.

 

[Mr Ed]

Yes it is a bit different as Mr. Holtey is only making 16 number 98 planes...I suspect Rob Lee's tooling costs need amortising over a few more than that to break even.

Cheers, Ed

 

[custard]

It will be interesting to see how the new plane sells. I can't see myself buying one because I have the existing Veritas low angle block plane and that works so well that I couldn't justify buying another. The recently introduced Veritas skew rebate, on the other hand, is ground-breaking in that it offers what no other fenced rebate plane on the market offers. That's where my money will be going when I can afford it.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I use both the left hand and right hand versions of the new skew rebate planes, well worth it just to avoid the din and dust of a router (and having to dress up like an astronaut just to cut a simple rebate in an exotic timber)!

 

[custard]

Just to let you know I posted a link to my review in the Review Forum.

To save you going there ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritasPremiumBlockPlanes.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, thanks for that review. In the workshop I use the LV low angle block plane, the LN skew block plane, and the LN apron block plane. When I'm outside working on boats I use a Stanley 91/2. I find that all of them share a common problem, I frequently change the depth of cut and on all these planes that means slackening off the pressure on the cap, but when re-tightened I often find the iron has tilted to one side or another. How do these new LV planes perform in that respect?

 

[Karl]

Karl - in the same way that a Holtey S98 will probably perform no better than a LV BU smoother...but then which would you rather have sitting on your bench, always assuming of course, that you (read I ) could afford a Holtey? In my view, the new LV block (the shiny one) is firmly pitched in Holtey country and at an affordable price...if you want to push the boat out a bit - Rob

Interesting question.

I honestly don't believe that I would go for the Holtey. Performance is key. All other things being equal, i'd rather have a dozen different LV/LN/Clifton planes than one Holtey.

Cheers

Karl

 

[tnimble]

firmly pitched in Holtey country

Oh, really? I'm not sure Mr Holtey would agree. His planes are lovingly hand made from scratch, to his own design. Veritas planes are mass produced to a price. Both may be high quality planes, but I do think the leagues are different.

When is a thing like a plane hand made from scratch?

- May sheet and flat bar stock be used? Or has the metal be melted and cast and rolled from raw ore? May the ore be purchased or must the plane maker hase a mine in his back yard?
- Must the parts be sawed and filed (preferably by self made saw blades and files), or may a milling machine be used? And may tis machine be equipted by digital readout or CNC operated?
- May he only produce a tool on request and never make teh same agina, mat he make a couple and put them for sale? If so how many may he make 10 per year, ten in total? a hundred or perhaps two hundred, or doesn't this matter as long as the parts are still hand aligned and removed from a machine and hand assembled?
- may the plane maker hire other people to help him keep up with demand, may he have some parts outsourced?

Is Mr Holtey still producing lovingly hand made tools when he makes 16 number 98 lanes in his shop using a CNC milling machine and lathe he lovingly cares for and maintains? Is he still is he would send out some parts to have sand blaster to a nice satin finish because he has not the equipment and expertise to get that nice finish on these parts?

The same can be asked about Bridge City Tool Works. What type of product have they made if they have lovingly created say 50 commemorative planes in their own shop who love and care about their job and equipment?

Maybe Rob can shed some light on the production runs they make on say the LVLAB and the NX60? I hope I can assume we've all looked at some of the pictures Rob posted on the web showing their shop and some of the production on the skew rebate planes? And that we know each machine is operated and fully cared for by one of their employees. in contrast to some mass producing companies where nobody has any responsibility for a machine except for some high up guy who manages the budget for replacing the machines if they break down. And where the employee gives a rats pink hole about the parts produced as long as the pay check will come in. Many factories reflect in high contrast to the workshop that shows in Robs pictures. I highly doubt they spend a week cleaning up, derusting machine beds, repainting the machines, floor and walls, and tidying up part storage before Rob wanders in with his camera.

 

[Mr Ed]

Thats a lot of questions Laura, but I'm not sure what you're really getting at.

I think all that was being said is that high end bespoke makers (e.g. Karl Holtey) and quality mass production outfits (e.g. Lee Valley) are doing 2 different things. I doubt if either thinks they are in competition with the other. I don't think either was being vaunted as better or more honourable, just different.

Cheers, Ed

 

[Ironballs]

Well I'm just glad that there are folks making new planes like this, won't necessarily buy them but it's good to know that I could if I wanted to - or could afford to in the case of Holteys!

I only have a cheapo block plane so this could be a potential future purchase for me, though there would be other planes ahead of it in the queue...

I love the look of the shinier version, modern looking and it seems that the Veritas designers have been idling staring at pictures of Ferraris whilst penning new designs. Just imagine what a No6/7 in this style would look like.

Well done Rob and team and looking forward to that little scraper in Feb

Cheers

Damian

 

[tnimble]

Thats a lot of questions Laura, but I'm not sure what you're really getting at.

What I was getting at, when to we define in what leak a certain product of a certain maker falls.

I think all that was being said is that high end bespoke makers (e.g. Karl Holtey) and quality mass production outfits (e.g. Lee Valley) are doing 2 different things. I doubt if either thinks they are in competition with the other. I don't think either was being vaunted as better or more honourable, just different.

Agreed that that has not been questioned in this thread. But with this new premium line of tools Rob Lee is putting out the Lee Valley, Utilitas and Veritas combo has now at least 4 kind of product:
- quality tools from various sources
- tools branded under the name of Lee Valley
- tools designed and manufactured under the name of Utilitas
- tools designed and manufactured under the name of Varitas (the same of the above with the addition of all parts must be produced in North America and must have something unique in the design)
- a no compromise range of tools with strong emphisis on design, materials and finish quality under the name of Veritas premium line

From top to bottom in this list things vary from almost 'big-box store' allke to about the likes of indi tool makers.

 

[woodbloke]

firmly pitched in Holtey country

Oh, really? I'm not sure Mr Holtey would agree. His planes are lovingly hand made from scratch, to his own design. Veritas planes are mass produced to a price. Both may be high quality planes, but I do think the leagues are different.

Tom - that we're even mentioning KH's planes and the new Veritas blocks in the same thread is in itself interesting. Agreed, the two methods of manufacture are entirely different, Holtey making a limited number of bespoke planes not by hand (there's a lot of sophisticated kit in his shop) and Rob Lee using what must be an equally sophisticated manufacturing system. Rob gave his designers a free hand on this one iIrc but had to reign them back on one or two issues. The weekend after next I'll have an opportunity to compare the NX60 with a Holtey side by side...it'll be interesting to see how the new Veritas stacks up beside it.
What's also quite interesting is that Rob Lee owns an S98 (it was on show last week in the USA) so you can draw your own conclusions as to the design specification(s) for the new planes :wink: - Rob

 

[wizer]

firmly pitched in Holtey country

Oh, really? I'm not sure Mr Holtey would agree. His planes are lovingly hand made from scratch, to his own design. Veritas planes are mass produced to a price. Both may be high quality planes, but I do think the leagues are different.

When is a thing like a plane hand made from scratch?

Dividing the hair into four I think there Laura.

 

[woodbloke]

firmly pitched in Holtey country

Oh, really? I'm not sure Mr Holtey would agree. His planes are lovingly hand made from scratch, to his own design. Veritas planes are mass produced to a price. Both may be high quality planes, but I do think the leagues are different.

When is a thing like a plane hand made from scratch?

Dividing the hair into four I think there Laura.

Tom - the point is valid IMO. If you've ever dipped into David Pye's book on ' The Nature and Art of Workmanship' (if I remember the title correctly) there's an excellent account of exactly what constitutes something made "by hand" If you can find a copy, it makes excellent and very thoughtful reading - Rob

 

[bugbear]

firmly pitched in Holtey country

Oh, really? I'm not sure Mr Holtey would agree. His planes are lovingly hand made from scratch, to his own design.

Wayne Anderson's planes are close to hand made, as are Bill Carter's.

Karl Holtey's most definitely are not. His production isn't fully automatic either, of course.

The designs are indeed his own, but then so are Veritas'

BugBear

 

[ivan]

I have one or two LV planes, including the new rebate. They are all substantial, accurately made, and so work excellently. Personally I do not rate Norris' adjsuter design. It looks engineering-solution-elegant, but makes it impossible to adjust depth of cut without upsetting the lateral setting, and also vice versa. Unfortunately for me LV have made a feature of this, which usually limits my choice to Clifton or LN.

 

[woodbloke]

I have one or two LV planes, including the new rebate. They are all substantial, accurately made, and so work excellently. Personally I do not rate Norris' adjsuter design. It looks engineering-solution-elegant, but makes it impossible to adjust depth of cut without upsetting the lateral setting, and also vice versa. Unfortunately for me LV have made a feature of this, which usually limits my choice to Clifton or LN.

I've got five planes with Norris type adjusters and have never found this to be an issue - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

I think the Norris adjuster on the Veritas low angle block plane works really well - one of the reasons I prefer it over the Lie Nielsen.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[ike]

I like the Norris adjuster. It's an elegant design solution. So it might take a little while to get used to. How difficult can it be? :roll: I like retained one in the new LV block plane as Alf described.

I however neither need, want or wish to spend even more on a premium 'premium' plane. :roll: As if the 'normal' planes aren't pricy enough (The price has as near as damn it, doubled since I bought my set after they first came out.) My 'premium' LV's including the LA block are already spot on.

 

[Rob Lee]

firmly pitched in Holtey country

(snip)

What's also quite interesting is that Rob Lee owns an S98 (it was on show last week in the USA) so you can draw your own conclusions as to the design specification(s) for the new planes :wink: - Rob

Hi -

Actually - we had two partially completed 982's on display....just missing the adjusters.

I do have a 98 though, and mitre plane of Karl, as will soon have a 982. All you have to do is look at his exploded views on his website to truly appreciate how much extremely detailed work goes into each plane.

We were luck enough to have a customer of Karl's set up on a bench in our booth at WIA with 6 or seven of her personal Holtey planes. She would let anyone who wanted have a go at a piece of maple with any of the planes... truly generous!

Cheers -

Rob

 

[Pekka Huhta]

For me the LN adjuster has been the worst possible one, although it looks brilliantly simple at first sight. There's no "gear" on the adjustment, so you will have to loosen something else when adjusting. And every time when adjusting, the iron "rides" to the same direction where you turn the knob. The small planes aren't all that bad, but frankly I hate my #62 for the poor adjuster. No tuning, lapping or greasing improves the adjuster.


To return to the new baby, I'm a bit surprised about the strong criticism. OK, it sure is an expensive plane, but then again so are many others as well. There are limits even to the best handwork (like Wayne Anderson or Konrad Sauer) or small-scale industrial perfection (like Karl Holtey). Both styles lean heavily to plate steel manufactury, just as the old craftsmen who made the original infills. Cast structures and that sort of space-age design requires quite a bit of industry behind it.

I don't see the new plane as much a competitor to the traditional hand-made tools but something new: a "designer plane", which has just as much value in it's design and style as any design item. You won't say that "that Alessi does not do anything my good old plastic lemon squeezer doesn't" as everyone can see it just isn't the point. On that plane you pay £100 and some for a ferking brilliant plane and another £100 for a design item. It's simple as that.

Isn't that the whole point behind "premium?" That it isn't just practical, no-nonsense workhorse, but something more than that?

In that light I understand the new stainless version very well, but I'm not sure if the other one has enough bling in it :wink:

Pekka

P.S: would I want one? Hmm. Probably yes, but then again if we count out my Clifton #5 and LN #62, all my other planes were made before WW2 and most of them before the first one. The new plane would probably look a bit too posh on the row

 

[woodbloke]

For me the LN adjuster has been the worst possible one, although it looks brilliantly simple at first sight. There's no "gear" on the adjustment, so you will have to loosen something else when adjusting. And every time when adjusting, the iron "rides" to the same direction where you turn the knob. The small planes aren't all that bad, but frankly I hate my #62 for the poor adjuster. No tuning, lapping or greasing improves the adjuster.

Pekka - this is one of the fundamental things with a Norris style adjuster in that you must slacken off the tension on the blade before you make any alterations. One of the main reasons that the traditional Norris planes with the adjuster failed was that the user didn't have a clue on how to make an adjustment to the blade and so wound it in or out with the blade fully locked down...hence 'caveat emptor' (sp?) when you buy one from Fleabay... unless like a certain person in these parts known to us all, who is the possessor of an shedfull of S&S planes, you buy one that's never been used - Rob