New Veritas plane UKW exclusive announcement

[woodbloke]

Handworkfan wrote:

It's not as easy as it looks, you know, being a Grumpy Old Man - and I'm still only learning the art.

...and some of us around these parts have been at it a long time :wink: :lol: - Rob

 

[Rob Lee]

Maybe 'angry' was a bit hyperbolic - but it's annoying to me that a firm that can produce such excellent kit is going down the bling road rather than filling the very obvious gaps that there are in the market - as I say, a compass plane would be a great addition to the range. it seems to me to be departing from a successful formula of well-worked out and thoroughly usable kit that's always been exceptional value for money.
But fair enough - I'm not going to waste too much energy being angry with them especially when there's so much else that's more satisfying to grouch about :wink:

Hey - where's the beef?? :lol:

Ain't no direction change here...did you miss the saw released at the same time?

How about that side rebate plane??? It's a steal, for what it is....

Our next 8 planes are planned to be $129, $79, $79, $79, $79, $165, $179, and $179.... and a spokeshave at $109 ... all USD (and subject to change based on wonky exchange rates...)

If we do a jack in Ni-resist ductile - it'll cost us $134 to buy the raw casting - and cost twice as much to machine as normal ductile... that's completely without "bling". "Bling" is pretty much free... advanced material you gotta pay for....buy it - or don't but it, but don't ascribe motivations or directional changes that aren't there...

Then too, we don't have to play in just one sandbox... 8)

Cheers -


Rob
(who is rapidly gaining insight as to what it must have been like to be a director at Volvo in the 80's... :shock: :lol: )

 

[Paul Chapman]

Keep up the good work, Rob. I think most of us are very happy with the tools you are producing.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Vormulac]

There will always be naysayers Rob, but you don't sound too choked about it - stout fellow! :lol:

V.

 

[Rob Lee]

There will always be naysayers Rob, but you don't sound too choked about it - stout fellow! :lol:

V.

Hi -

No worries here - I know what we're doing - and where we're going...and am quite willing to share that ...

I'm not really chuffed about any comments - it's all good (and all scrolls off the bottom eventually... :lol: ) ...

Cheers -

Rob

 

[yetloh]

Surely one of the points about hand tools is that they should be satisfying to behold. All Holtey planes qualify hands down. So do the new LV block planes. Also LV are innovators; LN are not. Apart from build quality their planes are no advance over Stanley/Record of 50 years ago. I have the LN low angle block plane and the more I use it the less I like it; I prefer my old (fettled with a Jap laminated blade) Stanley equivalent which is a more useful size and vastly easier to adjust laterally.

I think the new LV block planes are great and am in the queue for the premium version. My LN will appear on ebay in due course.

 

[Handworkfan]

[Ain't no direction change here...

buy it - or don't but it, but don't ascribe motivations or directional changes that aren't there...


Cheers -


Rob

I actually said a lot of nice things about LV which have gone unnoticed - I've got a shedload of Veritas kit and I love it, so I'm clearly not just carping for the sake of it.
I'm happy to be assured that there's no directional change, which was what I was worried about. I'll continue to buy, use and doubtless love the well-engineered and functional tools that LV produce at such competitive prices - I've reviewed a few of them over the years.
It seems to me that LV is a unique company, doing soemthing that no one else is doing. LN refine classic designs and produce them to a very high standard, which is great, and Clifton likewise produce pretty trad kit also to high standards - but LV have a tradition of innovation with purpose - the blade-centring screws are a great example, and the frog that supports the blade right through the sole is another.
My only 'beef' is that I don't want to see the only company in the world that does that kind of thing losing its way. If you tell me it hasn't, then that's fine.
No problem.

 

[Rob Lee]

Hey Handworkfan...

I *did* put smileys in my post... no offense here...
:shock:

Cheers -

Rob
(between periods, hoping to avoid becoming a basement dweller supporter....)

 

[Handworkfan]

Hey Handworkfan...

I *did* put smileys in my post... no offense here...
:shock:

Yes, you did - sorry if I sounded defensive.
Don't take me too seriously - I don't - not functioning very well at present and probably rather grumpier than usual.
No offence taken - just think of me as a critical friend.

 

[Rob Lee]

(snip).... just think of me as a critical friend.

That's exactly how I read it...!

Cheers -

Rob
(Whose team *did* avoid the basement.. )

 

[karl5005]

I don't want to hijack this thread as it is really about LV, but I do feel the need, as my name is mentioned a few times, to address a few misconceptions.

1. My planes are approx 90% hand made, my workshop is quite humble and the majority of machine operations call for a great deal of workholding and tooling which needs to be made. The majority of parts, especially the wood, are done by hand. I employ machining where precision is required and it takes care of some of the donkey work.

2. Since all my planes are fabricated there is absolutely no need for any sand blasting and never has been. All my work is done in house except for the heat treatment on the blades.

3. Holtey and LV planes are different concepts and both work very well as do various others.

My new plane is called No 982, but the '2' does not mean mark 2, it is a different plane from the No 98.

I am a proud owner of a LV NX60 and I can only speak highly of it. I wish Robin Lee and his team the success they deserve.

Karl Holtey

 

[Lord Nibbo]

My new plane is called No 982, but the '2' does not mean mark 2, it is a different plane from the No 98.


Karl Holtey

Ah! my dream machine a #98 One day Karl, one day. :lol:

PS... nice to see you post again =D>

 

[woodbloke]

I don't want to hijack this thread as it is really about LV, but I do feel the need, as my name is mentioned a few times, to address a few misconceptions.

1. My planes are approx 90% hand made, my workshop is quite humble and the majority of machine operations call for a great deal of workholding and tooling which needs to be made. The majority of parts, especially the wood, are done by hand. I employ machining where precision is required and it takes care of some of the donkey work.

2. Since all my planes are fabricated there is absolutely no need for any sand blasting and never has been. All my work is done in house except for the heat treatment on the blades.

3. Holtey and LV planes are different concepts and both work very well as do various others.

My new plane is called No 982, but the '2' does not mean mark 2, it is a different plane from the No 98.

I am a proud owner of a LV NX60 and I can only speak highly of it. I wish Robin Lee and his team the success they deserve.

Karl Holtey

Karl - your planes are the just the very best and like LN I'd love to own one, but when your 'shop was featured in F&C a while ago, it's not what I'd call a '90% hand' operation, so please don't try and persuade me otherwise. I've said this many times when people refer to 'handmade'... basically no such thing exists. I suggest you find a copy of Proff David Pye's book 'The Nature and Art of Workmanship' from which I quote the last para from Chp 3, 'Is anything done by hand?'
"The extreme case of the workmanship of risk [hand work] are those where a tool is held in the hand and no jig or any other determining system is there to guide it. Very few things can properly be said to have been made by hand, but, if there are any operations involving a tool which may legitimately be called hand work, then perhaps these are they. Writing and sewing are examples"
I'm pretty certain last time I looked at one of your masterpieces I couldn't detect any crochet work :lol: - Rob

 

[Mr Ed]

"To distinguish between the different ways of carrying out an operation by classifying them as hand or machine work is, as we shall see, all but meaningless"

Same author, same book, same chapter!

I have read David Pyes book and in my opinion its not easy going and somewhat self-indulgently analyses the subject in a needlessly academic way. In my view clarity on wether something is 'handmade' or not is even less likely with Mr. Pye in the mix.

Cheers, Ed

 

[Paul Chapman]

Blimey, using Pye's definition you wouldn't even be able to fit the fence to your rebate plane :shock: :shock:

I think I will still consider my stuff as hand-made (even though I occasionally use a router and biscuit jointer) - everything else is done with hand tools (some with fences :wink: )

Cheers :wink:

Paul

PS and I would class Karl's planes as hand-made.

 

[Ironballs]

I didn't see a conveyor belt or moving production line in that feature on Karl's planes, so in my book it's hand made. And very well hand made too.

Let's stop talking semantics and get back to ogling shiny things

 

[tnimble]

A few pages back or so when this whole thing about hand made versus mass produced came up I posted some questions to show that is about impossible to differenciate based on the type of tool used or based on what is outsourced

We don't all grow our own trees to shop them down and make them into boards, likewise does a toolmaker need to do each and every step hirmself that is required to produce the final result.

When trying to do so, one either places Karls and Robs products as equal, or place Robs and ChangDong A Million Hinges For a Buck ltd. as equals.

Both are not true. One can only differenciate if one really want by; the though behind the product and high toletrance high quality versus high volume hope to get away with quality.

 

[Handworkfan]

"The extreme case of the workmanship of risk [hand work] are those where a tool is held in the hand and no jig or any other determining system is there to guide it . . . "

That would be the extreme case, but it ain't that simple, is it?
I would regard, for example, freehand scrollsaw work (something I find impossible to do well!) as hand work.
In a truly 'extreme' case, presumably, no 'jigs' (try squares) would be used to guide the tool (pencil or knife) in marking out! :lol:

There's also the uestion of who made the jigs - the fact that an end comes perfectly square when I shoot it is down to the fact that I made the shooting board properly in the first place - by hand.
Similarly, a mitred box corner is easily planed to a precise 45 degrees using the 'birdhouse' jig, but only because that itself was precisely planed by hand to the required angle - so as far as I'm concerned it's still hand made in that exhibits, even indirectly, the genuine hand skills of the maker.

 

[bugbear]

I have read David Pyes book and in my opinion its not easy going and somewhat self-indulgently analyses the subject in a needlessly academic way. In my view clarity on wether something is 'handmade' or not is even less likely with Mr. Pye in the mix.

Cheers, Ed

Sounds related to this book, which I found singularly unenlightening, despite high praise for it in some quarters:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... ight=craft

BugBear

 

[woodbloke]

Proff Pye's book is quite a difficult philosophical text to wade through (it was on our reading list for University) and as Ed has correctly pointed out, there are elements within in that appear to contradict. Without wishing to go too far OT Proff Pye examines the nature of 'workmanship' and more specifically the 'workmanship of risk' and the 'workmanship of certainty'
The former is when articles of any sort are supposedly made 'by hand' with all the risks that are attached, hence the reason that we often pay a premium price for goods that are 'hand made'. The 'the workmanship of certainty' is when the risk element is hugely reduced by using a machine tool system of some description, be it a production line, an individual CNC machine or even a hand tool which will determine the desired outcome with far more guarantee. A hand plane then becomes a 'hand-guided, outcome determining system' (or words to that effect) to produce a straight surface, the surface is not actually 'hand-made' per sae.
If you take an even more extreme example than the ones quoted, the only thing I can think off that can truly be said to be hand-made is if you were to go to a muddy field, dig up some clay with your bare hands, fashion that clay into a slab pot and then cook it in the sun...that would be 'hand-made' at the a very basic level. Flint knapping is another example which is one step up. The flint knapper (and I know someone who still does this) has a very high 'workmanship of risk' element but another tool is used (a rock or another flint) in the hand to make the desired shape, so it becomes a 'hand-guided' outcome...the analogy here is to think about using a plane blade on its own to make a straight surface :shock:...but then, how do you make the plane blade?...
The book goes into lots of other interesting areas and is quite thought provoking, hence it's a bit of a hobby-horse :roll: for me when I hear of stuff that's supposedly 'hand-made' as it's a useful 'catch-all' phrase that we use these days to describe something that has an element of 'hand-work' in it.
I think I've done a enough of a resume here (I think most of it's right...diminishing grey cells etc) and if I've offended anyone by last night's post ('specially Karl H...and I still want an S98) then I apologize and I'll spout no more :-# - Rob