New Matilda Bow Saw

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Hi, Swagman

Looking at your new bowsaw I can see the point of the metal, it won't add any thing to the overall strength of the saw, the thinnest weakest part of the saw is near the cross piece, so that is where it is going to snap. How about doing a test to failure, by clamping the bottom together and seeing what gives?

If you plated the outside from the top down the handles that would help, but as it is you still have a weak point, possibly weaker than a conventional bowsaw as it looks thinner. I would make one with two straight arms metal on each side and normal stretcher, that would be able to put a lot of strain on the blade with out failing.

Pete
 
waterhead37":2ln3l2mm said:
PeterBassett":2ln3l2mm said:
Game, set and match. :lol: :lol:

I don't think so..

I had a crappy old partial prototype for a table leg (in maple) I made a year or so ago and have just taken a few minutes to slice a bit off it to make the saw shown below. The bow is rectangular in section, 20mmx 30mm the blade length is 600mm and the max depth (arc height) is 380 mm. All together it weighs 695 grams.

I am cutting 20mm thick hard maple in the pic. The blade is from an old 1/4 inch bandsaw blade.

Plainly the dimensions are very different from a normal small bow saw but I think it proves my point about strength and the practicality of the method. To tension the blade, I compressed the bow about one inch only which was ample to tension the blade sufficiently for cutting.

swagman":2ln3l2mm said:
Hi Chris. Got an even better idea. You make up the laminated bow saw frame. I would like to view your final work.

I am afraid this is as final as it will get , I just don't need a bow saw. Although every time I see Frank Klausz using one to cut dovetails, I am a little bit tempted to be truthful. :wink:


760111551_pVB3z-L.jpg


Nice one Chris. Now how long before we see the new improved model.


Cheers; Swagman.
 
PeterBassett":2ishmz4a said:
Boom! And he's back in the game.

Do these saw cut on the pull stroke? Surely all the issues with tension would disappear if the blade was turned so that it cut on the pull stroke?

Hi Peter. I reckon I was served a bit of a curve ball by Chris. He had this laminate model sitting on the side line ready for me to call the challenge.


Good move though..


Swagman.
 
Pete Maddex":p2x8jgpt said:
Hi, Swagman

Looking at your new bowsaw I can see the point of the metal, it won't add any thing to the overall strength of the saw, the thinnest weakest part of the saw is near the cross piece, so that is where it is going to snap. How about doing a test to failure, by clamping the bottom together and seeing what gives?

If you plated the outside from the top down the handles that would help, but as it is you still have a weak point, possibly weaker than a conventional bowsaw as it looks thinner. I would make one with two straight arms metal on each side and normal stretcher, that would be able to put a lot of strain on the blade with out failing.

Pete


Hi Pete. I will increase the depth of the cross piece by putting a concave profile to the bottom edge. This should strengthen the area on the arms that you and Bugbear have some concerns with.



Just to clarify a point on the frame arms. The area that was pointed out as being a possible weak point, is still 10mm x 25mm at its narrowest point. Because the outside edges have been rounded over, it may look somewhat smaller in the photo. It would still take a large amount of pressure to break this frame.


Will see how the changes go.



Cheers & thanks.


Swagman.
 
Hi all. The following images show some recent changes I made to the Matilda Bow Saw. I think the newly shaped spreader is a nice improvement on the previous design.

I have also included the set up used to measure the frame when under tension at 0.5 inch of wind in. This measurement replicates the span of the bottom arms with a blade fitted and properly tensioned..
The readings were taken: without the steel bands being fitted; with outside bands only; with inside bands only; with inside & outside bands fitted.

The results were: Nil bands = 15.35 lbs ; Outside = 16.05 lbs ;
Inside = 18.04 lbs ; Both bands = 19.84 lbs.

A destruction test was also completed. This highlighted frame failure at 1.5 inches of wind in. (No steel strapping to frame).

A worthwhile exercise.


Regards Swagman.



01010486.jpg




01010487.jpg




01010494.jpg
 
Hi Swagman,

first of all: I really like the look of your saws. Very clean work und beautiful turning on the knobs. But I have two reservations:

Like shown in other posts I hold a bow saw at vertical part. These screws would disturb that.

The second is about time and tension. A bow saw will loos tension about time if it is not relaxed while unused. People won't do that if it is not easy. I can not see how to relax your saw fast and easy.

Cheers Pedder
 
pedder":3g9or68z said:
Hi Swagman,

first of all: I really like the look of your saws. Very clean work und beautiful turning on the knobs. But I have two reservations:

Like shown in other posts I hold a bow saw at vertical part. These screws would disturb that.

The second is about time and tension. A bow saw will loos tension about time if it is not relaxed while unused. People won't do that if it is not easy. I can not see how to relax your saw fast and easy.

Cheers Pedder


Hi Pedder. Thanks for the feedback.

The bottom outside handles have an internal thread which allows the althread blade holders to be wound in or out. When not in use, the tension to the bow saw can be easily backed off by turning these handles in the opposite direction. There is no need to remove the blade during this process.


I agree with your statement on the loss of tension to a traditional framed bow saw if not relaxed when not in use, and believe it good practice even on this type. But bare in mind this design is somewhat different due to the use of the spring steel straps on the frame arms. The inside straps are designed to prevent the frame arms from creeping in over time , while the outside straps help reinforce the area of greatest stress.

As you will note from the tension tests I carried out, these steel straps also play a role in generating a higher level of tension to the blade itself, compared to not having used them.

Whether the screws would become a problem to your personal style of holding the bow saw is hard to properly judge without having you trial this bow saw. I was hoping that the use of the Finisher Washers with these screws would have alleviating most of the possible concerns.

Some of the benefits of this bow saw design compared to a more traditional version include a deeper cutting capacity/to frame height, as well as a highly tensioned blade to aid directional control on curved work.



Hope this helps answer some of your concerns Pedder.


Regards Swagman.
 
swagman":2yhfdvv0 said:
Whether the screws would become a problem to your personal style of holding the bow saw is hard to properly judge without having you trial this bow saw. I was hoping that the use of the Finisher Washers with these screws would have alleviating most of the possible concerns.

How about rivetting the straps on, or if you want to use screws, just countersinking the screws to straps? That would also make the saw much more streamlined. Of course the straps could even be installed in grooves cut to the wod: that would look very classy.

Very good, innovative design. It seems that there is a lot in that saw that can't be judged from pictures only.

Pekka
 
Pekka Huhta":3ixr0r3m said:
swagman":3ixr0r3m said:
Whether the screws would become a problem to your personal style of holding the bow saw is hard to properly judge without having you trial this bow saw. I was hoping that the use of the Finisher Washers with these screws would have alleviating most of the possible concerns.

How about rivetting the straps on, or if you want to use screws, just countersinking the screws to straps? That would also make the saw much more streamlined. Of course the straps could even be installed in grooves cut to the wod: that would look very classy.

Very good, innovative design. It seems that there is a lot in that saw that can't be judged from pictures only.

Pekka


Hi Pekka. I will investigate the use of rivets to hold the straps on. Countersinking is not really an option. Being spring steel, its hard work even with Cobalt drill bits at a low 540 rpm.

I could drop the outside strapping. When you look at the tension results the O/strapping only added 0.70 lbs assistance compared with nil strapping.

What do you think!


Thanks for the feedback.


Swagman.
 
Intuitively I'd say that the outside strapping is far more important, as the inside strap is only on the compression side of wood. I have been involved in wooden boatbuilding: when you want to get an extreme curve on wood (as on a vertical stem that's steamed on it's low end to meet the keel), a metal strap would be used on the outside (tension) side of the wood to avoid splitting. Steamed wood would then compress to a very small radius, as long as the splitting on the outside would be prevented by the metal strap. In your case the wood is dry and will resist compression immensely well, so the outside strap is most efficient to just prevent splitting.

The more important outside strap is shorter in your case, but I would estimate that the bow will never break due to compression. The inside strap may help in reinforcing the end of the bow, but to my eyes it isn't as important as the outside strap. you should only be able to extend the outside strap as long as possible - even on the cost of extending them to the ends of the bow and shortening the sawblade in the process.

Another point might be that using spring steel is hardly that important. If you think about it: you can bend the spring steel with your hands, but you can't bend the wood in the middle. So "springy" stuff isn't important, but tension and compression is. Steel is good in both, much better than wood. In that regard spring steel is not essential, it's just a layer on the edge to prevent extreme compression or tension - which would lead to splitting or local compressions of wood.

You'll get the greatest strength if you bind the outside and inside layers together, so that they can't slide. If you think of a pack of cards you can bend it as much as you like. If you take a piece of corrugated board a thickness of a pack of cards you could never bend it with your hands. A corrugated board would have only the inside and outside layers to prevent bend, the parts in the middle are just for keeping the layers apart and keep them from slipping in regard of each other.

So what I would do would be to use a very thin piece of (mild) steel on both sides of the wood, riveted together to avoid them slipping in relation to each other. If you only use wood screws to wood it will allow a very small slippage, but as we are talking about a very small flexure on the bow, a tiny amount of movement on the screws will make a huge difference.

I may be wrong and you have definitely investigated it more than I have, but you might want to think about it. This is only my intuition.

Pekka

P.S: a fancy image comes into my mind: how about a 2 mm brass or SS strip on the outside, extending from the top to the end of the bow, filed to meet the curve of the wood. The enlarged parts for the handles/tension screws would be placed in the inside of the bow and the design moved towards "old style" bow saws. A hi-tech classic?
 
Pekka Huhta":2os4yd95 said:
Intuitively I'd say that the outside strapping is far more important, as the inside strap is only on the compression side of wood. I have been involved in wooden boatbuilding: when you want to get an extreme curve on wood (as on a vertical stem that's steamed on it's low end to meet the keel), a metal strap would be used on the outside (tension) side of the wood to avoid splitting. Steamed wood would then compress to a very small radius, as long as the splitting on the outside would be prevented by the metal strap. In your case the wood is dry and will resist compression immensely well, so the outside strap is most efficient to just prevent splitting.

The more important outside strap is shorter in your case, but I would estimate that the bow will never break due to compression. The inside strap may help in reinforcing the end of the bow, but to my eyes it isn't as important as the outside strap. you should only be able to extend the outside strap as long as possible - even on the cost of extending them to the ends of the bow and shortening the sawblade in the process.

Another point might be that using spring steel is hardly that important. If you think about it: you can bend the spring steel with your hands, but you can't bend the wood in the middle. So "springy" stuff isn't important, but tension and compression is. Steel is good in both, much better than wood. In that regard spring steel is not essential, it's just a layer on the edge to prevent extreme compression or tension - which would lead to splitting or local compressions of wood.

You'll get the greatest strength if you bind the outside and inside layers together, so that they can't slide. If you think of a pack of cards you can bend it as much as you like. If you take a piece of corrugated board a thickness of a pack of cards you could never bend it with your hands. A corrugated board would have only the inside and outside layers to prevent bend, the parts in the middle are just for keeping the layers apart and keep them from slipping in regard of each other.

So what I would do would be to use a very thin piece of (mild) steel on both sides of the wood, riveted together to avoid them slipping in relation to each other. If you only use wood screws to wood it will allow a very small slippage, but as we are talking about a very small flexure on the bow, a tiny amount of movement on the screws will make a huge difference.

I may be wrong and you have definitely investigated it more than I have, but you might want to think about it. This is only my intuition.

Pekka

P.S: a fancy image comes into my mind: how about a 2 mm brass or SS strip on the outside, extending from the top to the end of the bow, filed to meet the curve of the wood. The enlarged parts for the handles/tension screws would be placed in the inside of the bow and the design moved towards "old style" bow saws. A hi-tech classic?


Hi Pekka. Thanks for the very detailed and thought out feedback.


The recent frame tension tests I completed have shown the benefits of using metal strapping to aid the overall performance of a wooden bow saw. As I see myself wanting to make more of these shaped bow saws, I must listen to the opinion of others who have viewed my work as too non traditional. What is the saying "No point making BMW's if their happy to drive a Honda Civic''. Alas, I will now focus on making these Bow Saws minus the steel strapping. I will add an additional 0.25 inch to the bottom span to build the frame tension slightly higher. Its been an interesting journey.


Thanks again.

Regards; Swagman.
 
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