New Laws vs Mail Order Tools

[Tasky]

Does this mean that Axminster's cannot deliver a 100kg Planer Thicknesser to my home address, just in case I intend to use it in a violent attack.

As I read it, yes.

I'm sure the law will get tweaked again when they realise they're killing off thousands of businesses... Mainly the big DIY shops like B&Q, who have the money to challenge it.

 

[kdampney]

eBay have for a long time been very iffy about listings containing the word "blade"

The Bill's "bladed article" definition is in Clause 18, subsection 11:

In this section “bladed article”—
(a) in relation to England and Wales, means an article to which section 141A of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies (as that section has effect in relation to England and Wales);
(b) in relation to Scotland, means an article to which section 141A of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies (as that section has effect in relation to Scotland and disregarding subsection (3A) of that section);
(c) in relation to Northern Ireland, means an article to which Article 54 of the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 1996 (SI 1996/3160 (NI 24)) applies.

The Criminal Justice Act 1988, section 141A is too long to quote, (see here for the full thing), but (for England & Wales) it says:

...this section applies to...any knife, knife blade or razor blade...and any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person.

So I'm guessing that the Act 1988 is the reason why things like scissors and chisels are in indestructible packaging and say "Do not sell to under-16s". However, from the wording of the Act, that seems like overkill (no pun intended) as they haven't been adapted for use for causing injury, so who knows how this Bill will be interpreted...

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Interesting that underneath this thread in the Similar Topics is - Mother in laws death questions :lol:

 

[tomatwark]

It will also effect businesses I suspect, as some of the couriers will just apply a blanket ban on deliveries to make their lives easier.

 

[tomatwark]

Also I have just noticed the bit about school premises, does this mean that the colleges, and schools can no longer teach wood working, sewing , cooking, and more importantly train doctors and nurses.

 

[tomatwark]

In similar topics I am getting mail order razors.

Does this put these firms out of business.

I suspect that there will be some further amendments to this bill.

 

[marcros]

I hope that there will be some amendments.

Taking the razor blade example. It is ideal for a back bedroom business. Stocking a range of blades takes up minimal room, and the target market is anybody who can make the small postal charge work for them. That is anybody in the uk, and possibly further afield. It probably isn't viable as a bricks and mortar store which could only target a few tens of thousands of people in a big city, much less in a town.

 

[Just4Fun]

It will also effect businesses I suspect, as some of the couriers will just apply a blanket ban on deliveries to make their lives easier.

Or what about this alternative business model for a courier?
Suppose at the moment I can order a bladed widget from you for £20 plus £10 delivery.
In future I do the same, sending you £30.
The courier buys the item from you for one penny in a face-to-face transaction which is no problem under the proposed regulations. At the same time they sell you their autograph for £10.
The courier then brings the item to me and I buy it from them for £1. Again, a face-to-face transaction so no problem. The courier's net total revenue on the deal has gone up from £10 to £10.99 and I have found a way around the rules at a cost of £1.
With this business model the new rules provide couriers with an opportunity for increased revenue and a way to take business from any competitors who take the easy way out by refusing to carry bladed items.

 

[profchris]

eBay have for a long time been very iffy about listings containing the word "blade"

The Bill's "bladed article" definition is in Clause 18, subsection 11:

In this section “bladed article”—
(a) in relation to England and Wales, means an article to which section 141A of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies (as that section has effect in relation to England and Wales);
(b) in relation to Scotland, means an article to which section 141A of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies (as that section has effect in relation to Scotland and disregarding subsection (3A) of that section);
(c) in relation to Northern Ireland, means an article to which Article 54 of the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 1996 (SI 1996/3160 (NI 24)) applies.

The Criminal Justice Act 1988, section 141A is too long to quote, (see here for the full thing), but (for England & Wales) it says:

...this section applies to...any knife, knife blade or razor blade...and any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person.

The definition for the mail order offence is in section 17(1) and is much wider, certainly covering planes and chisels.

I've just written to my MP as follows:

I am writing, as one of your constituents, to alert you to the likely effect of the Offensive Weapons Bill which I suspect to be unintended.

Section 15 effectively makes it an offence to sell a bladed product by mail order, and is clearly aimed at knives and other potential weapons. However, the definition of bladed product in section 17(1) covers a wide range of products which are unlikely to be potential weapons. I am an amateur woodworker, and this provision would prevent me buying planes, chisels or saws. Model makers will be unable to buy scalpels and craft knives. Razors seem to be caught by the wording, even disposable razors whose plastic guard can be snapped off in seconds. I am sure there are many other similar products which would also be affected.

Many of these products are only ready available via mail order because they have a small and specialised market, and I cannot believe it was intended to outlaw them. The Bill would also reduce the range of products available to home DIY workers, which must be a substantial proportion of the population, to those products stocked by the large DIY stores, which again seems unlikely to have been the purpose of the Bill.

I would be grateful if you could raise this issue with the relevant Government department so that appropriate amendments can be made.

It would be good if others also wrote (maybe changing my text so it doesn't look like an organised campaign, perhaps say how it would affect you personally).

MPs' email addresses are at https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/

 

[custard]

I've just written to my MP as follows:

I am writing, as one of your constituents, to alert you to the likely effect of the Offensive Weapons Bill which I suspect to be unintended.

Section 15 effectively makes it an offence to sell a bladed product by mail order, and is clearly aimed at knives and other potential weapons. However, the definition of bladed product in section 17(1) covers a wide range of products which are unlikely to be potential weapons. I am an amateur woodworker, and this provision would prevent me buying planes, chisels or saws. Model makers will be unable to buy scalpels and craft knives. Razors seem to be caught by the wording, even disposable razors whose plastic guard can be snapped off in seconds. I am sure there are many other similar products which would also be affected.

Many of these products are only ready available via mail order because they have a small and specialised market, and I cannot believe it was intended to outlaw them. The Bill would also reduce the range of products available to home DIY workers, which must be a substantial proportion of the population, to those products stocked by the large DIY stores, which again seems unlikely to have been the purpose of the Bill.

I would be grateful if you could raise this issue with the relevant Government department so that appropriate amendments can be made.

It would be good if others also wrote (maybe changing my text so it doesn't look like an organised campaign, perhaps say how it would affect you personally).

MPs' email addresses are at https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/

Practical, sensible advice that I intend to follow. Thank you.

 

[Racers]

I have emailed my local MP.

Pete

 

[RogerP]

Message sent to my MP (Richard Graham).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Done. I did add that as we are a rural area it will affect us more than city dwellers (there has to be some benefit in living in a city I suppose ) and also that it will quite likely put many small especially rurally based suppliers out of business.

 

[Sawdust=manglitter]

I have also just done the same. Thanks profchris!!

 

[skelph]

Just emailed my MP and pointed out that those in rural areas like me are the worst affected - don't suppose it will make much difference really until businesses like Axminster, Workshop Heaven, Classic Hand Tools etc get involved.

 

[Tasky]

Section 15 effectively makes it an offence to sell a bladed product by mail order, and is clearly aimed at knives and other potential weapons. However, the definition of bladed product in section 17(1) covers a wide range of products which are unlikely to be potential weapons.

However... Section 17(2) immediately afterward states:

17/. Meaning of “bladed product” in sections 15 and 16
(2) In sections 15 and 16 so far as they apply to England and Wales, “bladed product” does not include an article described in—
(a) section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959,
(b) an order under section 141(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, or
(c) an order made by the Secretary of State under section 141A(3)(c) of that
Act.

So 17(2) seems to specifically exclude that wide range of products, under 141(2) of the CJA 1988..... which, as I read it, means we're fine since chisels and the like are not specifically made for the purpose of hurting someone... and only if you then adapt it for such things yourself, does it become a crime.

American style unguarded tablesaws, however..... Deadly weapons, the lot of 'em!! :lol:

 

[Tasky]

Also I have just noticed the bit about school premises, does this mean that the colleges, and schools can no longer teach wood working, sewing , cooking

They never taught it back when I was in education, anyway....

 

[Sawdust=manglitter]

Response received from my local MP...

Thank you for writing to me to express your concerns about the clause in the Offensive Weapons Bill which makes it an offence to sell bladed products by mail order. I hear your concerns, and I support any reasonable measure to combat violent crime but I believe knee-jerk legislation which may have unintended consequences must be avoided.

In the same way as the clause to prohibit the sale of certain firearms, I believe a number of organisations, including the Countryside Alliance, have raised concerns with the Home Office regarding the complexity of firearms usage, and the possible risks of badly worded legislation for legitimate users.

I am pleased that the Home Office minister has accepted the need to ensure that lawful stalking and pest control were able to continue unaffected as a result of this legislation, which included the need to clearly define the proposals to ensure that there were no unintended consequences of any change in the law. To that end, the Minister gave an assurance that the Home Office would produce clear definitions and guidelines before any new restrictions of large or rapid-fire rifles were introduced. However, I am deeply disappointed that they are yet to do this.

Unfortunately I am unable to speak in the debate on Wednesday on this issue, but I hope the Minister uses this as an opportunity to clarify these issues. My Plaid Cymru colleague, Ben Lake MP, hopes to speak in this debate and is looking to raise this issue with the Minister on my behalf. If no clarity is provided, I will look for opportunities during further stages of this Bill to ensure this is properly scrutinised.

 

[SteveF]

I see this could have quite an impact on a woodworker
bandsaw blades, planer blades, router bits, spindle moulders, marking knife, scratch awl, circular saws the list is endless
surely they will have to have a huge list of exceptions

I am not sure what can be done about blade related attacks, but I don't think this will help

Steve

 

[AndyT]

... indeed, it's just possible that young criminals who want to get hold of knives will steal them instead of buying them... which would make the politicians' attempt to reduce knife crime by passing more laws look pretty well useless.