Probably old hat to some and too easy for others but, I have a problem for which I would value any advice offered. Coping saws – no matter how careful I am, or; the care I take – I never seem to end up with a result that needs no ‘work’ done afterwards – often serious amounts. In my defence I was raised on ‘jig saws’, of the electrical variety and with a decent scroll blade I can usually manage quite well – but, using the ‘coping saw’ well evades me. I don’t use one often, but it would be pleasing to make a workman like job of doing so – when the need arises. No idea what I’m doing wrong – none; any small help appreciated. Happy to ‘practice’ but it seems pointless to be repeating the same errors – just as Einstein defined madness.
My little problem
- Thread starter Sam_Jack
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Can you be a bit clearer about what job youare actually doing?
The answer may be that the cuts from the coping saw are only giving the preliminary shape, which will be neatened off with other tools.
For example, if you were making a scribed joint in a skirting board or other moulding, you'd remove most of the wood with a saw, then pare back with a gouge. (Assuming you didn't want a big gap to fill with caulk and paint over.)
If you were scribing a filler piece to fit an uneven wall, you might get your final line with a spokeshave or abrasives.
The answer may be that the cuts from the coping saw are only giving the preliminary shape, which will be neatened off with other tools.
For example, if you were making a scribed joint in a skirting board or other moulding, you'd remove most of the wood with a saw, then pare back with a gouge. (Assuming you didn't want a big gap to fill with caulk and paint over.)
If you were scribing a filler piece to fit an uneven wall, you might get your final line with a spokeshave or abrasives.
Trafalgar
Established Member
Sam_Jack":11xrljoe said:
If you are cutting shapes with a coping saw these cuts are almost always made shy of the line and cleaned back to the line with rasps and files. If you are coping mouldings, these are usually refined with sandpaper, chisels, etc. Very fine fretsaw work would usually still require some clean up with rifflers, etc.
All that said, I've never seen a cut off a jig saw that didn't need a little treatment either so perhaps it's just a different set of expectations about what is, and isn't, a finished surface. "Straight from the saw" usually implies joinery whose sawn surfaces will not show -- mortise and tenon, dovetails, etc.
Racers
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Blade tension is the main cause of wandering, I made a bowsaw that takes coping saw blades and tensions them tight, it makes curves very easy to do.
I would post a picture but they are on photobucket!
Better blades help I think Workshop Heaven sell some good ones.
https://www.workshopheaven.com/catalogs ... saw+blades
Pete
I would post a picture but they are on photobucket!
Better blades help I think Workshop Heaven sell some good ones.
https://www.workshopheaven.com/catalogs ... saw+blades
Pete
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Look for better blades to start with. Are you cutting on the pull or push? I must admit I have not seen (in 50 years) anyone use a gouge when scribing skirtings - I doubt many of the people I've watched even owned a gouge. I tend now to do only my own work, so I use a fretsaw blade in a jeweller's saw and slightly undercut the back. A minute or two longer, but no clean up and a perfect fit.
skipdiver
Established Member
Make sure you buy quality blades to start with and make sure they are tensioned as much as possible, again this probably is down to whether you have a quality coping saw in the first place. I've used cheap saws and blades belonging to others and they are a bit hit and miss. Finally, make sure the front and back of the blade are in line with each other and you have no twist in the blade. The rest is just practice really. After many many years of using one, mainly for scribing skirting boards, i can cut to the line quite easily.
When using a small bladed saw, your eye cannot see the if the blade is square or not.
Once you have the blade lined up with the cut, your main focus should be on the metal loop, making sure it is at 90 degrees to the cut each and every pull (or push). same with a hacksaw, dont look at the blade, look at the frame.
Once you have the blade lined up with the cut, your main focus should be on the metal loop, making sure it is at 90 degrees to the cut each and every pull (or push). same with a hacksaw, dont look at the blade, look at the frame.
'Never let your back wood stop ya' was the thing I always use to hear using a coping saw. If you're scribing skirting you can undercut the shape as much as you wish- obviously going to wild is pointless .
This might sound daft, but you can only cut as good as the line you're following. I was quite often passed pieces of wood to cut and had to ask what part of the line would they like cutting, cause sometimes it was about 2mm wide ! Same goes for a jigsaw, unless it's a nice narrow clear line, the cut will be wondering everywhere trying to decide which part to follow.
It's already been mentioned but tension and a decent blade are vital.
Coley
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
This might sound daft, but you can only cut as good as the line you're following. I was quite often passed pieces of wood to cut and had to ask what part of the line would they like cutting, cause sometimes it was about 2mm wide ! Same goes for a jigsaw, unless it's a nice narrow clear line, the cut will be wondering everywhere trying to decide which part to follow.
It's already been mentioned but tension and a decent blade are vital.
Coley
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
My humble cup overfloweth – Thankyou all. It was a picture rail, in an old Victorian house which brought me to ask. Your erudite answers have, as is the norm, brought more questions. So, with your indulgence:-
The saw I own is a Stanley – Fat Max. It feels ‘strange’ in my hand. I can with some accuracy (did it today) with a strange saw rip curt a 600 mm cleat ‘off the saw’; the dovetail pins I cut with my trusty Diston to fit a 200 y.o. DT fit nicely – off the saw; with some ‘trimming required to exactly match the old (battered) tails – so I can cut. But clearly – not having ‘experience’ with the saw, I am reluctant to blame the tool. So, remedy #1 – beg, borrow or steal a ‘proper’ saw and see if I do better with it.
Which brings me to ‘blade tension’. My venerable ‘frame saw’ (American Oak – 12 tpi 365 mm) – is my only guide to ‘tension’. I have trouble sensing when the blade of the Stanley is ‘right’. Is there a ‘rule of thumb’? I have the same problem with the dreaded (seldom used) hacksaw.
Push or pull – tried both in desperation; preference for the Western; although I suspect that is habit, ease and familiarity etc. I have managed ‘journeyman’ standard cuts with both; but the blessed coping saw just does not send the right messages. You know; the tension leaves you’re your hand when a saw is ‘singing’ through the job; on line (near enough).
Sunny Bob points out one of my errors – I am so focussed on try to get the blade Square – I forgot the basics. Mea culpa – I shall try tomorrow to right that wrong.
Final thing – how is one to know if that skinny little blade is twisted? Perhaps that’s my problem- going around corners – I’m worried that the back ain’t a’followin the front or viccy- vercy. Perhaps when I learn to keep the frame on the straight and narrow, get some decent blades and throw a few more off cuts onto the practice pile – I shall get to value the hated coping saw.
Thank you gentlemen; one and all. I shall re read the offered advice (again) and have at it. Much obliged. No pictures of my practice though – although if the two hundred y.o made in Morocco armoire (Spanish ironmongery) turns out Ok – maybe then. The original nails are wonderful – 2”; handmade, square and with a tiny clean up (and straightening) good to go again – remarkable. I may yet keep ‘em – hard to part with. The DT pins were a challenge.
Cheers.
The saw I own is a Stanley – Fat Max. It feels ‘strange’ in my hand. I can with some accuracy (did it today) with a strange saw rip curt a 600 mm cleat ‘off the saw’; the dovetail pins I cut with my trusty Diston to fit a 200 y.o. DT fit nicely – off the saw; with some ‘trimming required to exactly match the old (battered) tails – so I can cut. But clearly – not having ‘experience’ with the saw, I am reluctant to blame the tool. So, remedy #1 – beg, borrow or steal a ‘proper’ saw and see if I do better with it.
Which brings me to ‘blade tension’. My venerable ‘frame saw’ (American Oak – 12 tpi 365 mm) – is my only guide to ‘tension’. I have trouble sensing when the blade of the Stanley is ‘right’. Is there a ‘rule of thumb’? I have the same problem with the dreaded (seldom used) hacksaw.
Push or pull – tried both in desperation; preference for the Western; although I suspect that is habit, ease and familiarity etc. I have managed ‘journeyman’ standard cuts with both; but the blessed coping saw just does not send the right messages. You know; the tension leaves you’re your hand when a saw is ‘singing’ through the job; on line (near enough).
Sunny Bob points out one of my errors – I am so focussed on try to get the blade Square – I forgot the basics. Mea culpa – I shall try tomorrow to right that wrong.
Final thing – how is one to know if that skinny little blade is twisted? Perhaps that’s my problem- going around corners – I’m worried that the back ain’t a’followin the front or viccy- vercy. Perhaps when I learn to keep the frame on the straight and narrow, get some decent blades and throw a few more off cuts onto the practice pile – I shall get to value the hated coping saw.
Thank you gentlemen; one and all. I shall re read the offered advice (again) and have at it. Much obliged. No pictures of my practice though – although if the two hundred y.o made in Morocco armoire (Spanish ironmongery) turns out Ok – maybe then. The original nails are wonderful – 2”; handmade, square and with a tiny clean up (and straightening) good to go again – remarkable. I may yet keep ‘em – hard to part with. The DT pins were a challenge.
Cheers.
Trafalgar
Established Member
I think you should adjust your expectations and as a result, your methods of work. You'll never produce a finished surface off a coping saw for furniture making, no matter how good the saw or fine the tooth count. There might be a patch or two that look great, depends on species and grain, but the rest will need some clean up. Your goal with a coping saw, jig saw, bandsaw is to get close to the line and but leave a little (a consistent amount is the goal) for cleaning to the line with fine files and/or abrasives. In a commercial environment this usually means an oscillating spindle sander with a range of sleeve sizes and of course grits. These are available in home shop versions and they work quite well.
What you don't want to do with a coping saw is leave a fat eighth or more in some spots and barely a 32nd in others. Be consistent in the amount you leave for finishing to the line. The most difficult thing to do is keeping the saw square to the cut line. If you undercut at the back, egregiously, the profile cannot be realistically saved, it'll always look like warmed over poop --it's better to start over with a new workpiece.
Arrange the saw to cut on the push stroke for most work. When using in a birdsmouth for fretting it has to be arranged to cut on the pull stroke.
You can get a finished surface off a very high quality power scroll saw, with superb blades, but it still requires skill in maneuvering the workpiece through the cut.
What you don't want to do with a coping saw is leave a fat eighth or more in some spots and barely a 32nd in others. Be consistent in the amount you leave for finishing to the line. The most difficult thing to do is keeping the saw square to the cut line. If you undercut at the back, egregiously, the profile cannot be realistically saved, it'll always look like warmed over poop --it's better to start over with a new workpiece.
Arrange the saw to cut on the push stroke for most work. When using in a birdsmouth for fretting it has to be arranged to cut on the pull stroke.
You can get a finished surface off a very high quality power scroll saw, with superb blades, but it still requires skill in maneuvering the workpiece through the cut.
Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
I find when using my coping and or fret saw (and I use them daily) the following technique works for me.
1. First make sure the wood is secured flat to the bench with the line to be followed upper most (obviously), with a 6 inch overhang at the front of the bench
2. Make sure the blade is set to cut on the down/Pull stroke and tightened as far as it will go. Before cinching think about the path you will follow for the line and orientate the pins on the coping saw and frame to allow the frame to move freely ie the frame can swing around the overhanging end of the wood.
3. Check the blade is straight and has no twist, give it a flick like a guitar string and you will get a high clear note rather than a thunk
4. Position yourself so you can see the saw path clearly, with your elbow supported by your thigh.
5. Tuck your elbow into the crotch of your thigh and side of your stomach, your leg should stick out around 60 deg to the side.
6. Offer up the blade to the start point and making sure the blade is vertical start to make the cut supporting the back of the blade with the thumb of the opposite hand. For the first few strokes until the blade has established the cut.
7. Move your free hand to underneath the hand holding the handle and with the elbow tucked in use it to support the saw hand.
8. Concentrate on keeping the saw teeth pointing in the direction you want to go and keeping it vertical (both side to side and front to back). Forget everything else. If you need to make a sharp change of direction slightly back off the pressure of the saw stroke and rotate the saw.
9. If the blade sticks or judders you are either going too fast or are twisting the blade as you cut or rotating it vertically as you cut, or a combination of the 3.
10 Above all take you time and if you are using a fret saw, you can get a finish surface from it (for glue etc) depending on the thickness of the wood and blade size, to help, make a knife wall along your desired cut line.
1. First make sure the wood is secured flat to the bench with the line to be followed upper most (obviously), with a 6 inch overhang at the front of the bench
2. Make sure the blade is set to cut on the down/Pull stroke and tightened as far as it will go. Before cinching think about the path you will follow for the line and orientate the pins on the coping saw and frame to allow the frame to move freely ie the frame can swing around the overhanging end of the wood.
3. Check the blade is straight and has no twist, give it a flick like a guitar string and you will get a high clear note rather than a thunk
4. Position yourself so you can see the saw path clearly, with your elbow supported by your thigh.
5. Tuck your elbow into the crotch of your thigh and side of your stomach, your leg should stick out around 60 deg to the side.
6. Offer up the blade to the start point and making sure the blade is vertical start to make the cut supporting the back of the blade with the thumb of the opposite hand. For the first few strokes until the blade has established the cut.
7. Move your free hand to underneath the hand holding the handle and with the elbow tucked in use it to support the saw hand.
8. Concentrate on keeping the saw teeth pointing in the direction you want to go and keeping it vertical (both side to side and front to back). Forget everything else. If you need to make a sharp change of direction slightly back off the pressure of the saw stroke and rotate the saw.
9. If the blade sticks or judders you are either going too fast or are twisting the blade as you cut or rotating it vertically as you cut, or a combination of the 3.
10 Above all take you time and if you are using a fret saw, you can get a finish surface from it (for glue etc) depending on the thickness of the wood and blade size, to help, make a knife wall along your desired cut line.
Now that was an interesting; and instructive morning, time well spent. I managed to borrow a saw with a wooden handle which was ‘comfortable’, re read my printed copy of all the comments and advice here, retrieved a few feet of the picture rail; cleaned off the bench and buckled down.
It took a while; putting all the notions together and finding a combination of recommendations which worked for me; I had ‘adjusted’ my expectations and strived to get as a consistently close to line as I could, keeping the ‘fat’ even. I knew when things were starting to come together – it started to feel right, the saw was ‘floating’ and, more importantly, the dog ambled into the workshop, a sure sign of tranquillity returning.
I ain’t saying the work is ‘quality’, but I have managed to get a feel for where ‘quality’ may achieved. I celebrated with a fresh coffee after I managed to get two pieces of the rail to marry up; then did it again, just to make sure it was not a fluke. There’s not much left of my original stock pieces, but there are four pieces which total 360˚all sitting on the bench; and an acceptable joining of two bits of ‘complicated’ mould 9” skirting board.
More practice required to consolidate, but no more shame, frustration and bad language; I even enjoyed doing it towards the end. Most satisfactory; thanks again to all for the unstinting help and great advice.
It took a while; putting all the notions together and finding a combination of recommendations which worked for me; I had ‘adjusted’ my expectations and strived to get as a consistently close to line as I could, keeping the ‘fat’ even. I knew when things were starting to come together – it started to feel right, the saw was ‘floating’ and, more importantly, the dog ambled into the workshop, a sure sign of tranquillity returning.
I ain’t saying the work is ‘quality’, but I have managed to get a feel for where ‘quality’ may achieved. I celebrated with a fresh coffee after I managed to get two pieces of the rail to marry up; then did it again, just to make sure it was not a fluke. There’s not much left of my original stock pieces, but there are four pieces which total 360˚all sitting on the bench; and an acceptable joining of two bits of ‘complicated’ mould 9” skirting board.
More practice required to consolidate, but no more shame, frustration and bad language; I even enjoyed doing it towards the end. Most satisfactory; thanks again to all for the unstinting help and great advice.
One further point that's not been mentioned. It sounds like you are trying to cut a scribed joint for an inside corner on picture rail. The 'obvious' way to mark the line is to stand a square ended piece of moulding on the flat back of the piece you want to cut and trace round it with a pencil.
A better way is to first cut a mitre on the end, using a hand or power mitre saw, a mitre box or freehand, whatever is appropriate to the size of piece. Then make your fretsaw cut along the back line of the mitre.
Hard to describe or visualise but it gives you a much more accurate line.
A better way is to first cut a mitre on the end, using a hand or power mitre saw, a mitre box or freehand, whatever is appropriate to the size of piece. Then make your fretsaw cut along the back line of the mitre.
Hard to describe or visualise but it gives you a much more accurate line.
Eric The Viking
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If that's wot you are doing, wot Andy said!
And it is actually worth undercutting the scribe slightly - gives you an apparently better fit, as it can crush a little. You often see this on old skrtings ("baseboards" to the Americans), and it's how I was taught to do them 30 years ago.
The >110-year-old picture rails I've dismantled recently actually had inside mitres, caulking and a lot of paint over them. This was a bit surprising, as several alcove inside corners definitely weren't square.
E.
PS: I was taught to pull cut, too. My (also Stanley) saw has only the bow for blade tension, i.e. no actual adjustment of that - you get what you get (and you do up the clamp completely at the handle end). I have tried push cutting with it once or twice and the blade sprang out at the handle end (it's in compression).
You might also experiment with a Japanese saw for mitres - the tooth profiles are wonderful, and it will prove to you that pull saw technique can yield wonderful results too. Obviously an ordinary Japanese saw won't cut curves, but it's a similar technique to a fretsaw, using different muscles from those used for a Western saw, and having a very different feel. I must confess that now I have a couple of good Japanese blades (only rip and crosscut - nothing too exotic), I hardly ever use my Western saws by choice - this has surprised me (in a good way!).
That said, I have really struggled to find good quality fretsaw blades affordably here, and that is an issue. There's a trade-off: a lot of set with respect to the blade's front-back thickness makes it easy to manoeuvre, but also makes it hard to track straight. a deeper blade (WRT the set - the converse of the first sort) will cut straighter, but can only turn in a larger radius. It's just the same as a bandsaw or scroll saw blade. Some have even been blunt from the packet, too. I'd check whatever you use is sharp and properly set, and not asssume.
I won't be the first person you've heard or read complaining about modern Stanley quality...
And it is actually worth undercutting the scribe slightly - gives you an apparently better fit, as it can crush a little. You often see this on old skrtings ("baseboards" to the Americans), and it's how I was taught to do them 30 years ago.
The >110-year-old picture rails I've dismantled recently actually had inside mitres, caulking and a lot of paint over them. This was a bit surprising, as several alcove inside corners definitely weren't square.
E.
PS: I was taught to pull cut, too. My (also Stanley) saw has only the bow for blade tension, i.e. no actual adjustment of that - you get what you get (and you do up the clamp completely at the handle end). I have tried push cutting with it once or twice and the blade sprang out at the handle end (it's in compression).
You might also experiment with a Japanese saw for mitres - the tooth profiles are wonderful, and it will prove to you that pull saw technique can yield wonderful results too. Obviously an ordinary Japanese saw won't cut curves, but it's a similar technique to a fretsaw, using different muscles from those used for a Western saw, and having a very different feel. I must confess that now I have a couple of good Japanese blades (only rip and crosscut - nothing too exotic), I hardly ever use my Western saws by choice - this has surprised me (in a good way!).
That said, I have really struggled to find good quality fretsaw blades affordably here, and that is an issue. There's a trade-off: a lot of set with respect to the blade's front-back thickness makes it easy to manoeuvre, but also makes it hard to track straight. a deeper blade (WRT the set - the converse of the first sort) will cut straighter, but can only turn in a larger radius. It's just the same as a bandsaw or scroll saw blade. Some have even been blunt from the packet, too. I'd check whatever you use is sharp and properly set, and not asssume.
I won't be the first person you've heard or read complaining about modern Stanley quality...
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Am I the only one who has found Eclipse blades dire? I'm still using Screwfix ones from years ago that are far, far better. Iirc the brand was "Speedo"? It doesn's say in today's advertising.
Eric The Viking
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Thanks - have noted that!Droogs":tigny1gg said:
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Cheaper on ebay than on Amazon? thought they don't specify the number in the pack on Amazon. :?
Andy_T - “One further point that's not been mentioned. It sounds like you are trying to cut a scribed joint for an inside corner on picture rail.
Spot on. That job was around a big chimney breast – two sides then to a bay window and around the walls. Not a square corner in the place – I can divide the angles, using my trusty brass school compass, so the power mitre saw saved my bacon; but I had to cope much of the work – hence the discovery of my little problem.
Andy_T - The 'obvious' way to mark the line is to stand a square ended piece of moulding on the flat back of the piece you want to cut and trace round it with a pencil. A better way is to first cut a mitre on the end, using a hand or power mitre saw, a mitre box or freehand, whatever is appropriate to the size of piece. Then make your fretsaw cut along the back line of the mitre.
Wow! Thinking back, that’s the thing that was troubling me. I had little faith in the scribed lines. I tried Andy’s method and straight away- faith in the marks; confidence in the cuts. I still need to be careful and pay attention but, by George; I think he’s got it.
I have consigned the Stanley to the ‘healing cupboard’ after doing a deal with a mate for his #3 (spare) saw. I can’t really blame the tool for my faults; but after using my recent acquisition, then trying the Stanley again – even for the small amount work I do using a coping saw, the difference is notable. The wooden handle seems to give me a ‘contact’ with the work, the fat plastic one does not. I’m even going to try out some different brand name blades. There interest, if not enthusiasm, in using a previously avoided tool. More practice, but with a good heart coming up…
Spot on. That job was around a big chimney breast – two sides then to a bay window and around the walls. Not a square corner in the place – I can divide the angles, using my trusty brass school compass, so the power mitre saw saved my bacon; but I had to cope much of the work – hence the discovery of my little problem.
Andy_T - The 'obvious' way to mark the line is to stand a square ended piece of moulding on the flat back of the piece you want to cut and trace round it with a pencil. A better way is to first cut a mitre on the end, using a hand or power mitre saw, a mitre box or freehand, whatever is appropriate to the size of piece. Then make your fretsaw cut along the back line of the mitre.
Wow! Thinking back, that’s the thing that was troubling me. I had little faith in the scribed lines. I tried Andy’s method and straight away- faith in the marks; confidence in the cuts. I still need to be careful and pay attention but, by George; I think he’s got it.
I have consigned the Stanley to the ‘healing cupboard’ after doing a deal with a mate for his #3 (spare) saw. I can’t really blame the tool for my faults; but after using my recent acquisition, then trying the Stanley again – even for the small amount work I do using a coping saw, the difference is notable. The wooden handle seems to give me a ‘contact’ with the work, the fat plastic one does not. I’m even going to try out some different brand name blades. There interest, if not enthusiasm, in using a previously avoided tool. More practice, but with a good heart coming up…
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