Mouseman making

[johnnyb]

I've just had a look at robert thompsons craftsmen. I began to think about how these are made and indeed the oak they use. They imply a single craftsmen makes each piece despite advertising for both cabinet makers(£33000) and woodmachinists. Anyway most of it seems straightforward panels, joints etc. The two things that stand out are the adzed tops and the octagon legs. How are these made? I'm guessing the tops are not as simple as have at it with an adze...polish. I imagine the legs are machined all but one facet which is carved into a mouse.(to me the mouse seems a parody at this point but an effective trademark)
They seem to offer a decent apprenticeship.
They imply the oak used is air dried outside for 7 years. This can't be the only treatment as it would not be dry enough to go indoors. Maybe they dehumidify it down to an acceptable level. They seem to use nice quality wood. I must have a visit there one day. Feels like a good place overall it must be said.

 

[Eshmiel]

I can't say what the current or recent Robert Thompson production is like but if they kept to the traditional methods of making, as did his various apprentices ("The Yorkshire Critters") who set up in business making the same stuff, then just about every surface of every piece will be adzed to shape rather than planed or otherwise shaped. There are some machine-cut (planer/thicknesser) surfaces in the less obvious parts, such as the underside of a table stretcher, but even small parts such as the panels in the frame and panel items were adzed.

In 1966 my parents-in-law bought quite a lot of Mouseman-style furniture made by one of RT's apprentices, Albert Jeffray. Albert's stuff stuck to the traditional adze-making techniques right up to 2013, when I believe production ceased. However, many of the later productions did begin to show flat-planed surfaces, presumably to reduce costs, to please customers or maybe because it became difficult to find enough apprentices willing to learn the adze-shaping skills.

As I recall, my father-in-law, who went to watch the place at work sometime in the 70s, said that the adzed surfaces were lightly hand-sanded as the final step to remove whiskers, sharp arises and the like - but no more. The furniture was sold as unfinished, just-waxed or with some tougher varnish-like stuff, as the customer wanted. My father-in-law bought his unfinished, as it did reduce the price a tad.

I've attached some photos of the Albert Jeffray Mouseman-style stuff we inherited when my parents-in-law died. The adzing of all sorts of parts can be seen, I hope. (If not, I'll take more photos - eventually).

 

[Co1]

It’s sacrilege that the mouse man museum is 10 mins from my house and I haven’t been!

I drive past regularly and there are huge barns full of boules of oak being air dried.

 

[johnnyb]

I'm seeing the adzing as a surface finish rather than a method of manufacture. I'm slightly doubtful that these items would be handmade at all tbh but I am highly cynical! Just handfinished and carved. I guess I'd have to visit there production workshop to see. I have done some adzing as a surface finish and sure enough those irregular hexagons do appear. I didn't swing it just used it like a large gouge with a twist.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I'm seeing the adzing as a surface finish rather than a method of manufacture. I'm slightly doubtful that these items would be handmade at all tbh but I am highly cynical! Just handfinished and carved. I guess I'd have to visit there production workshop to see. I have done some adzing as a surface finish and sure enough those irregular hexagons do appear. I didn't swing it just used it like a large gouge with a twist.

I’ve watched them adzing table tops. The timber is rough sawn and the adz brings it to the final finish.

They have massive oak boules dotted around the village. These are moved under cover as they season (which takes years) and is then machined down into more manageable sized boards for manufacture.

They don’t have a sawyer in a pit but the manufacture is pretty much as it’s always been. It’s not just hand finishing.

I posted a YT video in the “Post a Picture of the last thing you made thread” from the 1930’s when the topic came up a few weeks ago. Not sure if you’ve seen it but if not it’s worth a watch.

I’m a bit cynical about the prices they charge but am in awe of their traditional hand tool skills.

If you are visiting you can watch them at work from a gallery. It can be a bit of a lottery as to what you see. We live a few villages away and if I’m passing and have the time always have a quick shufty at what is going on.

 

[Eshmiel]

A few more Eagleman piece photos, in which you can see that even the small panels (around 5" X 6") in the frame & panel doors/sides are adzed to shape rather than hand-planed or machined. As Mr Swan reminds us, the shaping of parts is initially done by large machines to make the planks square nd evenly thick/wide but all of the furniture parts as they go into a piece are hand-adzed to final shape and finish.

Without a more detailed observation, its hard to know if hand-adzing is slower or faster than something like hand-planing. It won't be as fast as machining things to final size, shape and finish but, as far as I know, there is no machine that can make the scalloped look and (just as important) feel. Maybe some sort of scrub plane could do it but it would be unlikely as even a scrub plane has a flat sole. Perhaps a scrub-compass plane .... ?

Once a worker has the skill, I can see that adzing might be quite rapid. One swing will take substantially more wood off than one swoop of a hand plane. Do they do it to knifed lines or other marks, I wonder? Or is it all by-eye? Maybe our local-to-Mouseman chaps will go and look or even interrogate?

 

[johnnyb]

Just watched that silent movie from blackswanwoid. Brilliant. Thoroughly enjoyable. I saw much assembling of mostly completed parts, no cutting from patterns or cutting of joints. Several carved mice, ecclesiastical carving which is always done by hand. Adzing of a table top then scraping, then sanding. I'm sure the actual processes are carefully guarded as even that film from the 30s is carefully curated imho. (I'm not criticising them at all just curious as to how a firm like this actually operate you know the nitty gritty.) The wood can't simply be brought in and used as when it went Into a heated house all hell would break loose!

 

[johnnyb]

I personally think there secret is retaining control of there material stocks. It's lovely stuff there working with and how it responds to the adze suggests it's not kiln dried. I bet suppliers fall over themselves to provide oak for them. If there not hybrid working I'd be amazed tbh. Ie mostly machine, hand touches and adze working. The three things that say mouseman are mouse, adze, finish. I'll definitely go and visit these one day!

 

[mwinfrance]

Remember, at the time that movie was made houses were not heated as much as today. "Comfortable" in winter was 16 to 17 degrees , and if you wanted warmer, you put more clothes on...I remember in the 60's ( not just 63 ) ice on the inside of bedroom windows and crackly sheets from the frost.

 

[Doug71]

I have never been to the Mouseman workshop/museum but went on a trip to Ampleforth Abbey and college a few years ago where there is loads of his furniture. My eldest son must have been about 4 at the time and I remember he really enjoyed hunting down the mouse on every piece of furniture.

 

[Cabinetman]

Thanks for this, I never realised it was hand adzed, but that does set it all at a different level. I just love the slightly scalloped finish. Almost like a hand planished finish on silverware when done properly it shrieks quality.

 

[Puggers]

We're less than half an hour away and I've been there a few times. The pub food a couple of doors down is recommended!

It is, as is said, luck of draw as to what you may see from the gallery but well worth the experience nonetheless.

Items from Mouseman, Wrenman and others associated regularly come up at auction (Ryedales has one today - no association on my part!) and they still command good values.

Our front door/sidelights and oak porch were made by Lilyman who worked there late 90's early 2000's.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I just noticed this …

How a church mouse started a woodworking dynasty https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c78xp948edgo

 

[johnnyb]

Mouseman I get but the other guys I'm not convinced.....I also don't like incised(egyptian) carving..

 

[Eshmiel]

Mouseman I get but the other guys I'm not convinced.....I also don't like incised(egyptian) carving..

"The other guys"? "....not convinced." (of what and why not)?

 

[johnnyb]

Of the legitimacy of simply working at robert thompson' s and adding man to flora or fauna as a way of gaining reputation via reflection. It's a seemingly common practice and some are probably "better" than mouseman stuff. But even the mouse is a bit obligatory(imho of course)

 

[brocher]

A few more Eagleman piece photos, in which you can see that even the small panels (around 5" X 6") in the frame & panel doors/sides are adzed to shape rather than hand-planed or machined. As Mr Swan reminds us, the shaping of parts is initially done by large machines to make the planks square nd evenly thick/wide but all of the furniture parts as they go into a piece are hand-adzed to final shape and finish.

Without a more detailed observation, its hard to know if hand-adzing is slower or faster than something like hand-planing. It won't be as fast as machining things to final size, shape and finish but, as far as I know, there is no machine that can make the scalloped look and (just as important) feel. Maybe some sort of scrub plane could do it but it would be unlikely as even a scrub plane has a flat sole. Perhaps a scrub-compass plane .... ?

Once a worker has the skill, I can see that adzing might be quite rapid. One swing will take substantially more wood off than one swoop of a hand plane. Do they do it to knifed lines or other marks, I wonder? Or is it all by-eye? Maybe our local-to-Mouseman chaps will go and look or even interrogate?

Thanks for the reminder about Albert Jaffray. We bought a small trinket box from him a long time ago. It was clear that he had learned a lot from Robert Thompson. We treasure that box.

I am also a bit surprised at some of the negative comments about the skills involved in producing fine wood furnetiter from some people on this website. I really do wish people wouldn't be so nasty about such matters.

 

[johnnyb]

I'm not being negative about the skills of the people involved at all. The original post was really about what those skills actually are(we are woodworkers after all) surely merely carving flora/fauna isn't a guarantee of a certain quality. I am a bit of an iconoclast by nature and many of the truisms always trotted out about mouseman Etal don't stack up with how we know things are successfully made. The nature of the wood itself even. The idea that because certain parts are adzed then it must all be adzed to shape. How the adzing is achieved to such a high standard. I was hoping someone who worked there may weigh in with there experience. Don't mistake honesty for negativity(after all honesty of manufacture is one of robert thompsons and all arts and crafts period tenets)

 

[mwinfrance]

Like wise ( I agree with johnnyb re some of the others who worked there "running with" the add an animal motif to their work ), I appreciate the skills involved in Mouseman, although the style is not to my taste .I briefly had a table by Mouseman when in the UK, bought as part of a "lot" from an auction at Bridgenorth. One of those shown in the "clip" of the workshop in the 30s, a friend with an antique business ( who I used to buy paintings for when at auctions ) said he was interested in it. I swapped it for a 1st edition of The Water Babies by Charles Kingsley, didn't ( still don't like the sentiments in the book ) , but did and still do appreciate the technical ability of the Linley Sambourne engraving illustrations. I had an extensive collection of Punch ( which he did many illustrations for ) at the time.