Mock ye not !!

[MIGNAL]

My workbench has a ply top, not really suited to removing material. It's a good quality birch Ply though. Lengthwise it's slightly hollow, about 0.6 mm over 2 ft. Pretty handy because a standard veneer helps to get that engineering flatness. :wink:

 

[Jacob]

... but if you need wedges under the workpiece in the final stages of planing to hold it flat enough, the bench isn't flat enough to start with.

Well yes obviously - but it doesn't matter because you can put wedges in etc. The underside of a newly sawn board is unlikely to be flat - so how do you cope with that if you are planing the top side? NB a flat bench does not help.

PS and what's wrong with the Sellers bench? If you really want it flatter surely you'd just plane it (err..) flatter? There's nothing about it to prevent this, is there?

 

[bugbear]

We've had this conversation about benches before:

sharpening-for-beginners-t63079.html

(The topic drifted a little )

If anyone has anything new and useful to add, as opposed to loud repetition, I encourage you to post it.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

PS and what's wrong with the Sellers bench? If you really want it flatter surely you'd just plane it (err..) flatter? There's nothing about it to prevent this, is there?

 

[Reggie]

I have to agree with Jacob, I had to flatten a pine board that had cupped, if you saw my bench (it'll fall in 1/2, badoomtish), I had to use scrap bits of wood as wedges to hold it up, I'm not looking for precision here and good enough really is good enough Just for clarity, my bench is a bit of 9mm plywood slung between a workmate and a portable dual compound mitre saw/router table station, it has no concept of flat surfaces except at the ends.

I'm sure paul sellers method for flattening his bench is fine, don't forget he's showing you on a video tutorial, so I suspect if you care enough, you can use his method and get it as flat as you like. As with everything though, I think it comes down to how much you want to think about this stuff or how much you just want to get on and make it.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

... but if you need wedges under the workpiece in the final stages of planing to hold it flat enough, the bench isn't flat enough to start with.

Well yes obviously - but it doesn't matter because you can put wedges in etc. The underside of a newly sawn board is unlikely to be flat - so how do you cope with that if you are planing the top side? NB a flat bench does not help.

PS and what's wrong with the Sellers bench? If you really want it flatter surely you'd just plane it (err..) flatter? There's nothing about it to prevent this, is there?

My post referred to "the final stages of planing". I didn't mention anything about the initial planing of rough-sawn and possibly distorted timber.

PS - Where have I criticised the Sellers bench? It's as good a design as any other, especially for someone trying to build a first bench using limited facilities.

 

[David C]

Jim Kingshott, apprentice trained cabinetmaker states "It is probably unnecessary to stress how important a truly flat benchtop is"

This becomes obvious when planing 5/16" drawer sides.

I have never advocated working to one thou tollerances, but four thou makes a significant difference to the fit of a tennon.

Hope to see you at Cressing Temple.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[mark w]

Good to hear from you David, after you pointed out in one of your DVDs about the importance of bench flatness and planed an area of a bench flat to work on, I found it hilarious to watch Paul Sellers flatten the bench he was making, the point being Jacob and you other Sellers fans is, he claimed it was flat, I said I bet it wasn`t.

 

[MIGNAL]

:roll: Stop being such an idiot. How on earth can YOU tell that it's not flat, by watching a video? and if so can you can please inform us all by how much, to the nearest 0.1 mm will do.
The more I read this forum the more I think that Jacobs 'armchair woodworkers' really do exist!

 

[Jacob]

Jim Kingshott, apprentice trained cabinetmaker states "It is probably unnecessary to stress how important a truly flat benchtop is"

This becomes obvious when planing 5/16" drawer sides.

I find myself less and less interested in selected quotations from the scriptures, I want to know what people do themselves. So Dave if you have a sawn board say 1/2" ready for your drawer side how would you plane the first side flat? NB the underside would be not flat, however flat the work surface.

I have never advocated working to one thou tollerances, but four thou makes a significant difference to the fit of a tennon.

Hmm not a lot but so what anyway? Working from gauge marks, with hand tool tolerances, either it fits perfectly (or is slightly loose which is probably good enough) or it's tight so you ease it a bit - without measuring, knowing or caring about thous.

 

[Cottonwood]

LOL someone was ticked off, (I imagine, I might be wrong?), because Mr Sellers, who has very well developed, time served skills, was able to do a mundane task quickly and efficiently, without it becoming a nerve wracking time consuming quuasi-religious existential endurance test. Much like sharpening, cutting dovetails, planing stock etc-just presents a pratical non BS method that is proven with time and experience to be effective.

 

[mark w]

Mignal, Idiot am I, strong offensive word. I believe it was not flat for two reasons, one because of the size of the plane he used on a long top and two, the random way in which he planed it.
Jacob, sorry to hear you can`t or won`t learn from history.
Cottonwood, quickly yes, efficiently not so sure, accurately, probably not, which is more important?
As Mignal decided to get personal, I think I will make this my last post on this thread, hope to see at the European Woodworking show Mignal.

 

[iNewbie]

The more I read this forum the more I think that Jacobs 'armchair woodworkers' really do exist!

Its not about the armchairs! :mrgreen:

 

[MIGNAL]

Mignal, Idiot am I, strong offensive word. I believe it was not flat for two reasons, one because of the size of the plane he used on a long top and two, the random way in which he planed it.
Jacob, sorry to hear you can`t or won`t learn from history.
Cottonwood, quickly yes, efficiently not so sure, accurately, probably not, which is more important?
As Mignal decided to get personal, I think I will make this my last post on this thread, hope to see at the European Woodworking show Mignal.

Oh well you're quite happy to call Mr. Sellers manic and find his techniques 'laughable'. That's 'personal' enough.
Anyway, don't forget you're grade A engineers straight edge before you set off for the European Woodworking show. You'll need it. :wink:

 

[DMF]

Some interesting reading for someone at the start of all this, thank-you all

 

[Dangermouse]

TIME TO PUT AN END TO THIS THREAD I THINK !!!!! =;

 

[Cottonwood]

Mind, Jacob asked a perfectly reasonable question-if flatness is so crucial, then how DO you deal with a rough board, (which is never going to conveniently present itself with a nice ready made perfect flat face to place on a flat bench, for planing to thickness)..
If it IS so important to have a perfect flat reference surface to plane thin stuff &c, then why not have somme sort of specialist planing beam or jig to work on, which you could keep in a safe place, regullarly check it for flatnness, and fit it into the vice or between dogs etc only when needed for a job that did require particular precision (not all jobs do) then store it out of harms way when not in use? Isnt that precisely why we have shooting boards and mitreing boards, as aids for accuracy?

 

[David C]

Who is this Dave?

Has Jacob stopped reading?

There is no point explaining anything to the man who knows everything and will disagree with every detail.

I suspect he knows perfectly well that trying to plane and thickness thin stuff, of some length, accurately on a bumpy surface is virtually impossible.

David

 

[AndyT]

Mind, Jacob asked a perfectly reasonable question-if flatness is so crucial, then how DO you deal with a rough board, (which is never going to conveniently present itself with a nice ready made perfect flat face to place on a flat bench, for planing to thickness)..
If it IS so important to have a perfect flat reference surface to plane thin stuff &c, then why not have somme sort of specialist planing beam or jig to work on, which you could keep in a safe place, regullarly check it for flatnness, and fit it into the vice or between dogs etc only when needed for a job that did require particular precision (not all jobs do) then store it out of harms way when not in use? Isnt that precisely why we have shooting boards and mitreing boards, as aids for accuracy?

This is from George Ellis, Modern Practical Joinery, 1902:

Panel Boards are used for planing up panels and other thin stuff requiring a cleaner and truer surface than is provided by the ordinary bench top. They are commonly made from a short length of 1 1/2 by 9in deal, with two or three screws at one end to serve as stops... a superior form of board is shown in fig 2... (page 38)

There's nothing new under the sun!

 

[Jacob]

.......
Has Jacob stopped reading?......

You mean I've got to buy a book or DVD or something Dave? :lol:

........

I suspect he knows perfectly well that trying to plane and thickness thin stuff, of some length, accurately on a bumpy surface is virtually impossible.

David

Nobody is proposing that (though it isn't impossible at all, but it does involve hand and eye skills :shock: ). What I'm saying is that the emphasis on engineering standards of flatness aren't too relevant to woodworkers and that "ordinary" flatness is perfectly OK for the task here (5/16" drawer sides).
If necessary we have AndyT's solution from Ellis - which is exactly what I do myself although usually I use a bit of chipboard with laths pinned on as stops. This also helps bridge the well on my bench and the planing board with laths attached can be set aside for re-use.
The engineering approach is often a hindrance rather than a help and sets beginners off on a wild goose chase for super precision in places where it is really not needed.

PS and mark w is revealing definite armchair tendencies in not knowing that planing a workbench flat (enough) with a no 4 is perfectly possible! Sellers idea of sticking to a 4 as first choice is a good one I think.