Milling stock - a rambling question

[dance]

Hi

Just looking for some comparisons/reassurances or criticism here. An "am I doing it right" kind of post.

Today was the first day I've been doing unaided (by an instructor) milling of stock in my own humble shop.

I had been to the timber merchant's and bought some hardwood.

I then began surface planing the best (flattest most uniform) surface of the stock. I pencilled a scribble over the whole piece so that I would see where wood was being removed. It took forever! It took about six passes to before the pencil was being uniformly removed each time and it was haaard work moving the stock across the bed. I think it may need waxing to help here? Also, I have a EB HC260 which can only take off a small amount of material with each pass. I was also getting pronounced small ripples but when I slowed down these disappeared. Some online sources said ripples will ALWAYS be present with a planer and some said it means one blade is higher than the other and doing all the work. I was also trying to press on the outfeed table just beyond the cutting head. I found that I often got snipe at the end of the cut where the cutting head grabbed hold of the piece and pushed it through in an uncontrolled way. (By the time I was onto my last piece of stock I was not getting snipe I don't think - I think I found a way of holding/moving the piece which helped to curb this)

I then put the newly trued edge face down and ran it through in thicknesser mode. Got a much nicer finish in this mode so after truing up the other side I also planed the reverse too. At first I was getting huge amounts of snipe at the beginning and end of the stock but I found that by using a spirit level to insert the stock level this was negated at the beginning of the stock and by being ready to grab it at the other side and hold it level there it was not a problem at the end either. I still long for the American style equipment
one sees in all the online tutorials where the tables extend at both sides.... Not that I'm sat here at the keyboard I realise I could have used a roller to "catch" the timber too...

I then did some edge planing ready to use against the fence on my TS. This was easier, although to begin with I was again having problems with snipe. I'm extremely wary of the cutting head, I wonder if that's why - that my control of the piece suffers?

So yeah, I've a few questions buried in the above - basically I'm somewhat surprised at how long milling my timber took - easily two hours just to turn rough sawn hardwood into true, square stock ready to be used in my project. I guess that I'll get quicker as things become more familiar but I suppose I'll always be hampered by the limitations of the P/T which can't remove much material.

What I also can't believe is that the P/T has level beds! It's been lifted by its beds (by a previous owner and a huge no no in the instruction manual) and I've seen the Wood Whisperer's video on aligning a planer with feeler gauges and the best part of a day's time. Time I don't have and a job I don't want. The results seem to be OK I just can't quite believe it....

Then on to the table saw. Here I used my magswitch right before the blade to push the stock against the fence which works well. however after the blade the stock seems to want to wander away from the fence and I'm not sure how to stop it doing so... surely the riving knife etc would help prevent this? Does it even matter if it does? It seems strange. I also seem to have a consistent difference of 1mm in width from the top end of piece of stock to the measurement of the bottom. Run out? This is the Axi TS-200. It has been adjusted (not that that information features in the instruction manual) but not precisely, more by eye than anything else. Big improvement and I was happy enough at the time but maybe it needs tweaking.

Are you guys able to take stock straight from the TS cut and edge-laminate or do you plane the edge first? I've 'seen' both done as standard on the American videos.

Your thoughts would be most welcome!

In an ideal world an afternoon's help IN my little workshop would be the thing of course...! (someone to help assess if my equipment is calibrated, if I'm using them correctly/safely and if things just DO take as long as they seem to)

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Dance...

Quite a few points here.

from your mention of an Instructor, you seem to have taken some instruction from someone who knows so that's good.

You don't say how thick the timber was. If it's thick, heavy and resinous you might experience friction problems moving timber across the bed. Usually though it means the table needs a bit of waxing. I keep my table waxed with paste wax, and only rarely have that problem.

If your table has been lifted by its beds, it might be okay, but probably not and needs adjusting, as per the Wood-whisperer' and your manual.

Don't get tempted to remove the guard, so you can pass stock without having to move your hands over the guard. ALWAYS pass the stock under the guard. Passing your hands over the guard whilst maintaining even pressure is awkward, but it comes with practice. If you fancy the American design of planer, because of the swing guard, then I would urge you to stay with the 'British' type of guard.

You will always get a certain amount of ripple, however well your blades are set. The more blades in your cutter head the less pronounced this will be. The faster you pass the timber over the cutter, the further apart the ripples will be. You will get a feel for how slowly you need to move the stock, but generally you take a slow finishing pass to smooth out as much as possible. At least, that what I do! You probably know you must strive to keep an even pressure on the timber.

The side you should surface first is the cupped side (If cupping is present) Once you have a flat side then using the fence as your guide, edge it.
Then it is thicknesser time.
Snipe happens mostly (for me) when I am thicknessing, usually because the timber I am milling is too short. This is when the power feed grabs the timber, causing it to lift up against the underside of the table. So I support it underhand when I have to do this. I always allow extra length because of snipe, so I can saw off any bad snipe afterwards. .

(I make it a rule never to use my planing machine for stock less than 4 feet long. For really Short lengths I use the smaller planing attachment on my lathe.

I don't know if all this will help you, but if not there will soon be someone along to put me right as well as yourself!

best of luck

John

 

[Chems]

I thinnk John has covered everything there perfectly I'd just add a bit to keep in mind. The P/T is a rough tool, you get a square but roughly finished piece from it. Within reason I mean a few ripples and snipe. Always allow for snipe on your pieces don't mill finished thicknesses. Start allowing for this and you'll be flying through!

I got a number 4.5 smoothing plane because its recommened for cleaning up planer marks and the combination of the 2 gives excelllent results.

 

[woodbloke]

I thinnk John has covered everything there perfectly I'd just add a bit to keep in mind. The P/T is a rough tool, you get a square but roughly finished piece from it. Within reason I mean a few ripples and snipe. Always allow for snipe on your pieces don't mill finished thicknesses. Start allowing for this and you'll be flying through!

I got a number 4.5 smoothing plane because its recommened for cleaning up planer marks and the combination of the 2 gives excelllent results.

Agree with Chems that BW has got all bases covered. I'd just add not to try and mill off too much in one go. John has an industrial Segie p/t which will do the job, but for the rest of us mortals with more mundane gear :-({|= a 'little and often' is better - Rob

 

[RogerS]

If you have a p/t and you get ripple in both modes then that points to blade setting. But if you only get ripple when planing then that is down to too high a feed speed. Likewise getting a bit of snipe on the last inch when planing is usually down to not enough pressure on the outfeed and/or if you are using pushstick, pressing down rather that along the bed.

One technique I use and one that is explained in the latest issue of British Woodworking much better than I can is to only plane (the concave side) as much as is needed to support the timber through the thicknesser. In other words you don't need to have a fantastically planed 'first side'. Then turn the wood over and feed the other side through the thicknesser. Thus will give you a planed surface and free of ripples. You can then turn over and carry on thicknessing the side that you originally planed.

Once I have two sides that are now parallel and planed but not at the right thickness then I will try and thickness off both surfaces by a similar amount to minimise future wood movement.

 

[Benchwayze]

I haven't seen the article Roger, but I think what you are saying is, that as soon as the timber will rest flat without rocking, you can go ahead and get a 'flat' side from the thicknesser. This is then the side you choose as Face, and from which you 'finish-thickness'.

I can see the sense in that, especially for excessive cup/twist. Although if it's too bad, it goes in the bin!

Regards
John

 

[RogerS]

I haven't seen the article Roger, but I think what you are saying is, that as soon as the timber will rest flat without rocking, you can go ahead and get a 'flat' side from the thicknesser. This is then the side you choose as Face, and from which you 'finish-thickness'.

I can see the sense in that, especially for excessive cup/twist. Although if it's too bad, it goes in the bin!

Regards
John

Spot on, John. Saves an awful lot of time.

 

[Benchwayze]

Roger,

I shall bear it in mind, next time the need crops up.
(My knives are out at the moment, and I can't be 'assed' to put the new ones in. I am having a woodie break once I finish the present task!)

Regards
John

 

[wallace]

With regard to the problem when sawing, make sure the riving knife is in line with the blade and the table top is parrallel to the blade.

 

[bosshogg]

When thicknessing in the pattern shops, I always used a 4' 6" well prepared flat board to pass any thin or short, as far as the latter goes the length must be at least as long as the measurement between last infeed and first outfeed roller (roller count being machine type dependant) this gave better results in both instances. This is due to the fact that the closer the pressure of the top and bottom rollers is to the work, the more it will cause movement. I don't know how well this would work on the smaller thicknessers with fewer rollers, both infeed and outfeed, but it might be worth a try. Also parallelity between both the infeed and outfeed tables affects finish results, as Chems has already stated, these machines are rough tools at best, not finishing machines...bosshogg

Ethical axioms are found and tested not very differently from the axioms of science. Truth is what stands the test of experience. A.E. (hammer)

 

[Jacob]

Had a quick read. It sounds like you are making the first big mistake in the book.
NEVER plane plane anything until it has been cut to size (length, width, breadth, plus allowance for planing).
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I have known people who have attempted to plane their stock first and then cut to size. Madness! Can be impossible. Always very wasteful.

 

[dance]

Had a quick read. It sounds like you are making the first big mistake in the book.
NEVER plane plane anything until it has been cut to size (length, width, breadth, plus allowance for planing).
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I have known people who have attempted to plane their stock first and then cut to size. Madness! Can be impossible. Always very wasteful.

Guilty as charged! It did seem to be a wasteful process. I wonder why nobody else pointed this out?

Would you mind spelling out for this novice who wants to not only learn but learn and understand the error of my ways?

Thanks!

(Will be replying to other helpful posts in a bit but as you're the first to point out something glaring I had to pen an immediate reply.)

 

[woodbloke]

Had a quick read. It sounds like you are making the first big mistake in the book.
NEVER plane plane anything until it has been cut to size (length, width, breadth, plus allowance for planing).
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I have known people who have attempted to plane their stock first and then cut to size. Madness! Can be impossible. Always very wasteful.

Guilty as charged! It did seem to be a wasteful process. I wonder why nobody else pointed this out?

Would you mind spelling out for this novice who wants to not only learn but learn and understand the error of my ways?

Thanks!

(Will be replying to other helpful posts in a bit but as you're the first to point out something glaring I had to pen an immediate reply.)

Here's what I do. I use air dried timber whenever I can, which has usually been drying out a lot more in my 'shop, over the course of a few years. I mark out the rough sawn planks or whatever timber I'm using and then cut it over size by around 50mm in the length, 6-8mm in width and 6mm or so in thickness. I then machine it roughly to size so that it's still 3 or 4mm over size...and then I leave it for another few weeks 'in stick' to do it's own thing, move, twist, warp etc...and it will ('specially elm :evil: ) Once it's finished moving in the 'shop, I then bring it down to just over finished sizes and finally skim it with a jack plane to get to the final size. The main thing is not to try and hurry it as timber will do want it needs to do - Rob

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Dance,

I didn't realise from your first post that you were trying to surface wide stock before ripping. So my apologies there.
However, if you ever have to mill waney stock, you have to find some way of truing up one edge first.
I usually bandsaw the waney edge away which might or might not give a straight enough surface to register against the rip fence of a tablesaw. If necessary I will run that edge over the planer first just to be sure.

You can also screw a piece of straight stock to the waney edge and use that as a guide to rip a reasonably true edge, before you start dimensioning the plank. Obviously you make sure you keep the screws or nails clear of the blade!!!
Once you have that edge, use it to reference your marking out as Rob suggested.

HTH better than my initial rambling.


John