lastminute
Established Member
Advice please....just needed for the odd weld...confused by all the gas v gasless inverter or non inverter.
Thanks for any help
Gerry
Thanks for any help
Gerry
Mig or Tig?
- Thread starter lastminute
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
porker
Established Member
What do you want to weld? If you have little experience I would go for MIG. TIG is more expensive and quite difficult to learn with no previous experience of welding. I have a MIG and an inverter stick welder. If its thick enough I like using the stick as there is no gas to mess with. For MIG I have used gasless but didn't really get on with it.
t8hants
Established Member
Good advice above, mig is the easiest to learn although unless the equipment is expensive I have always thought gasless a waste of time. Stick if you plan over 3mm thick unless an industrial quality mig comes your way.
Gas and gasless welding. Welding with gas is pretty obvious, essentially gas is delivered via a ceramic shroud around the weld site. This is to keep the air away otherwise you wind up with a metal aero bar.
Gasless is a misnomer, there is no such thing as gas less welding, the wire you weld with has a flux inside of it creating the shroud to keep the air out. We called that wire corded wire and the welder was set to spray weld. It was incredibly hot and out leather gear would smoke .
Mig vs Tig, yes mig is easier to do, it's the point and squirt of the welding world.
Tig is essentially gas welding but using and electric arc. I find it more satisfying and once learnt you get really nice welds. A by product of this is you can get very bad 'sunburn' so will need to cover up, every bit of skin. The same for Mig in that respect, believe me you can get really burnt.
There is stick welding as well but the thinner the rod you use the more they shake about, you also need to keep the rods dry as well.
I am looking to get back into welding, just small suff in the garage. I used yo do this for many years making steel melting furnaces using 1/2 in to 2in steel plate.
Gasless is a misnomer, there is no such thing as gas less welding, the wire you weld with has a flux inside of it creating the shroud to keep the air out. We called that wire corded wire and the welder was set to spray weld. It was incredibly hot and out leather gear would smoke .
Mig vs Tig, yes mig is easier to do, it's the point and squirt of the welding world.
Tig is essentially gas welding but using and electric arc. I find it more satisfying and once learnt you get really nice welds. A by product of this is you can get very bad 'sunburn' so will need to cover up, every bit of skin. The same for Mig in that respect, believe me you can get really burnt.
There is stick welding as well but the thinner the rod you use the more they shake about, you also need to keep the rods dry as well.
I am looking to get back into welding, just small suff in the garage. I used yo do this for many years making steel melting furnaces using 1/2 in to 2in steel plate.
TIG is the all round rolls royce of welding, it only has one downside compared to other processes and that is it is a slower welding process. Ok so initial outlay can be expensive and you need pure Argon which is not cheap but it lays in beautiful welds with good penetration and finish in ferrous and non ferrous.
powertools
Established Member
It all comes down to the type of material you want to weld.
Welding tutor brutally takes the mick out of gasless mig.
Whatever you choose, avoid that.
A decent stick welder is simple, reliable and effective if you are working on thicker material.
Good rods help.
Whatever you choose, avoid that.
A decent stick welder is simple, reliable and effective if you are working on thicker material.
Good rods help.
Gas mig is easy to pick up. You probably won't be making STRONG welds but you'll be able to stick pieces together easily. Tig is tricky to pick up, for a beginner I wouldn't bother. Welding is a thing where the more expensive kit really is a LOT (like-miles) better than the entry level stuff. Hard to lay out that kind of money for occasional use though.
I have both mig and tig here.
In complete contrast to what it always said, i find TIG easier. But ive spent more time with a soldering iron (electronics) than i care to remember, and, to me, tig is more similar to that, in that the heat and the filler are independant.
But, as evreyone says above, it depends on what you want to do. I would not climb about under my landrover with a Tig torch, nor would i weld up field gates.
Someone with more skill than me could do delicate cosmetic welding with mig, but its much easier with tig.
If you want to sit at your kitchen table (i mean, you probably could!) and weld, then its tig. If you want to climb under rusting stuff than its mig.
Unless you really hate yourself, dont bother with gassless mig. Its just not worth it. And i wouldnt bother with the little disposables either. Just budget in for a rent free (which are actually better value than a boc contract now that boc have added even more charges).
Ive got to weld up some thick steel box garage door frames soon. Because of their proximity to a fuel tank, im probably going to tack them up using tig, even though it will be outdoor, and tig really does not do so well in wind, and then carry the units away from danger to seam weld with the mig.
In complete contrast to what it always said, i find TIG easier. But ive spent more time with a soldering iron (electronics) than i care to remember, and, to me, tig is more similar to that, in that the heat and the filler are independant.
But, as evreyone says above, it depends on what you want to do. I would not climb about under my landrover with a Tig torch, nor would i weld up field gates.
Someone with more skill than me could do delicate cosmetic welding with mig, but its much easier with tig.
If you want to sit at your kitchen table (i mean, you probably could!) and weld, then its tig. If you want to climb under rusting stuff than its mig.
Unless you really hate yourself, dont bother with gassless mig. Its just not worth it. And i wouldnt bother with the little disposables either. Just budget in for a rent free (which are actually better value than a boc contract now that boc have added even more charges).
Ive got to weld up some thick steel box garage door frames soon. Because of their proximity to a fuel tank, im probably going to tack them up using tig, even though it will be outdoor, and tig really does not do so well in wind, and then carry the units away from danger to seam weld with the mig.
Gasless mig is a waste of time
Stick is the cheaper alternative and the welds are generally far better with mig it's easy to perform a weld which looks nice but is actually garbage where as with MMA it's mostly good also you can weld anything mild steel with 3.2 mm rods at about 100 to 130 amps .
It's YEARS since I did a welding course, and really haven't used either Mig or MMA much recently. But would be interested to know from you professionals why striking the MMA arc gets more difficult the lower the amperage set? With an ancient oil-cooled Oxford, it's pretty much impossible for me to reliably strike an arc below 80A setting. In most cases, it just means switching to the Mig for thin stuff, but on the odd occasions outside when it's blowing a hooley, MMA is really needed for that thin stuff.
If your using an old Oxford it will be an AC current which is a little more difficult, also it will spatter a little more than dc.
when striking the arc do just that and strike it like a match.
make shure the leads are good also make shure the return is well connected always clean the metal back to brightFFor the return connection as well as your intended joins.
You can weld 3mm box with 2.5 mm electrodes grind a prep on the edge so you enable easy pen.
Use quality electrodes keep them dry in an airing cupboard is good for example.
Just use e6013 electrodes for a little mild steel job.
When restriping a used rod you will see an inverted cone in the burnt end break the edge away to expose the metal core a little tish cuts down on the need to tap to get a strike.
If your Oxford has the facility there is often a connection for a higher ocv this can help striking.
Also when you have stuck the arc allow it to establish before moving along the weld, a stable arck is always easier to weld with.
Practice on a bit of scrap first the rod box will tell you the amperage range for the rod.
Also a fillet weld needs more power tha a butt weld or a lap joint for example so bear that in mind anothe trick is the arc length if you tighten the arc you reduce the ocv hence cool the arc if you open the arc you increase the ocv an heat it up.
Hope this is some help to you good luck with your project.
Ps a DC inverter is an order of magnitude easier to use tha an old oxford.in fact my company just slipped one.
A couple of points, if you have been a gas welder then it is easy to pickup because you already have the feel for feeding the rod into the pool, it is also easier if you have a TIG with HF start. Once mastered though there is little you cannot weld with the right machine.
The good old stick welder is great for those big heavy jobs, but can be harder to learn and get good welds than a TIG in my opinion. The old Oxfords were the common stick welder once upon a time, but with modern invertor machines at least you can choose the rod polarity which helps with thinner material, (Negative rod) and also the good old challenge of vertical up.
Mention gasless MIG amongst welders and it always gets a laugh, you cannot beat a shield of a gas that is of your choice. Ok the sale of cheap MIGs has never helped the MIGs popularity, what was the phrase, porcupine welds.
Sorry to broaden the question at bit. But what about a brazing set?
I would like to join the odd bit of metal from time to time and occasionally heat tools to cherry red and anneal stuff. Probably not fancy metals, but occasionally to make a strong supporting structures and repairs (not to cars or where inspection/ safety is paramount). I don't want to fill the garage with stuff that is only used occasionally as I'm a wood worker, but there is only so much I can do with bolts and rivets. So something that would be quite versatile.
I did a bit of welding at school a long, long time ago. Good teacher. Oxy, arc and brazing. And remember brazing to be a bit simpler and good for joining non alike metals as well as like metals and is strong. Also noticed advice elsewhere on the forum about getting quality machines as its hard for beginners to learn on cheap ones, that makes quite a tough entry point, as we have to spend a few hundred pounds before knowing if it really is for us.
So my question is really the same, MIG, MMA or how about brazing? The consensus seems to rule out TIG as I wont be using it much to justify learning and the kit (I do a fair amount of electrical soldering keeping the house and kids electronics going etc ) I was thinking of getting a propane torch to do some simple for cherry red hardening and then tempering the odd tool. The boys would like to do a bit of forging on a simple charcoal tin pan furnace (lined with plaster). So really my question is what about brazing or having a hot joining tool for general use. If you had to choose one hot metal joining method that is versatile what would it be? Sorry if this distracts somewhat from Lostminutes well focused question, but I would be interested in your broader perspective. Thanks
I would like to join the odd bit of metal from time to time and occasionally heat tools to cherry red and anneal stuff. Probably not fancy metals, but occasionally to make a strong supporting structures and repairs (not to cars or where inspection/ safety is paramount). I don't want to fill the garage with stuff that is only used occasionally as I'm a wood worker, but there is only so much I can do with bolts and rivets. So something that would be quite versatile.
I did a bit of welding at school a long, long time ago. Good teacher. Oxy, arc and brazing. And remember brazing to be a bit simpler and good for joining non alike metals as well as like metals and is strong. Also noticed advice elsewhere on the forum about getting quality machines as its hard for beginners to learn on cheap ones, that makes quite a tough entry point, as we have to spend a few hundred pounds before knowing if it really is for us.
So my question is really the same, MIG, MMA or how about brazing? The consensus seems to rule out TIG as I wont be using it much to justify learning and the kit (I do a fair amount of electrical soldering keeping the house and kids electronics going etc ) I was thinking of getting a propane torch to do some simple for cherry red hardening and then tempering the odd tool. The boys would like to do a bit of forging on a simple charcoal tin pan furnace (lined with plaster). So really my question is what about brazing or having a hot joining tool for general use. If you had to choose one hot metal joining method that is versatile what would it be? Sorry if this distracts somewhat from Lostminutes well focused question, but I would be interested in your broader perspective. Thanks
Interesting. I'd heard odd mentions of the advantages of them, but had tried to ignore it so as not to be tempted to spend more of my pension!
Your reply was really good in reminding me things that I probably did know, but had not really absorbed into practice. The guy who taught me to weld was a brilliant welder ( "welding cobwebs" level) but he was hopeless at teaching the whys of what we had to do. He would just say "your arc's too long" "current is too low", "angle is wrong", without saying how he (or I) would know that.
Can't see me separating from the old Oxford, as it's served me well for the more agricultural stuff for at least 40 years, so it's the usual advice, practice, practice, practice.
Brazing is using a brass filler rod, but you need a flux powder with the filler rod. You can get rods that are coated with flux which is easier but you have to careful not to knock the flux off the rod. It keeps the air out of the joint your working on.
Generally you would use Oxy&DA gasses to do this. Push bike frames always had brazed joints, not sire about now, probably use fancy glues .
If you can braze, gas welding is just a small step up from this.
Thanks for this. I'll keep looking more. The garage is full, so really don't want to invest in multiple bits of kit right now. But there are a few projects that have had to be abandoned or we wrote off the broken kit (eg a trailer) and bought new because of lack of metal joining capability.
Arc is the more superior welding type!
I'm totally biased I love arc welding, and its cheap to start, cheap to maintain, requires only one box, no gasses, and you can do it in the rain because of no gasses.
Also the weld happens under the surface rather than on top of the surface, which is what happens with mig. Under the surface = stronger weld.
Also its just glorious. It's a glorious process.
And you can get 2mm rods for thin steel, like little fiery wands they are, amazing.
___________________________________
How'd I do, did I sell it? Run buy yourself an arc welder! 200 quid gets you a nice one on weldequip.
There is a forum attached to that shop, a big one.
I'm totally biased I love arc welding, and its cheap to start, cheap to maintain, requires only one box, no gasses, and you can do it in the rain because of no gasses.
Also the weld happens under the surface rather than on top of the surface, which is what happens with mig. Under the surface = stronger weld.
Also its just glorious. It's a glorious process.
And you can get 2mm rods for thin steel, like little fiery wands they are, amazing.
___________________________________
How'd I do, did I sell it? Run buy yourself an arc welder! 200 quid gets you a nice one on weldequip.
There is a forum attached to that shop, a big one.
I agree it is a step up but maybe not just a small one as the big difference is that unlike with brazing, with welding you are melting the base metals and will have a weldpool to control whilst feeding a rod into it.
