Michelin CrossClimate + tyres

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Just4Fun":1g151tv3 said:
Yes, We have had some 4WD vehicles with winter tyres and they are better generally, so long as you remember 4WD doesn't reduce your braking distance. IMHO The need for 4WD is less now than a few years ago though. Traction control systems are now good enough that for normal driving 4WD rarely provides much advantage and we no longer have a 4WD.

True in general as 4wd and awd have most benefit for traction on slippery or loose surfaces but they are very different animals and test are out there which showed 4wd was marginally better braking on snow than when the same vehicle was in 2wd mode.
The last 2 Audis had summer tyres on large wheels and coped very well with the few times we had bad winter conditions and while I can't compare my current tyres with them as it's a different vehicle, they definitely feel better.

AWD is permanently engaged and braking can be actually slightly worse due to the car being heavier than the same with only 2wd.

My last few cars have been 2 BMWs ( rwd ), an Audi A6 ( fwd ) then A4 avant, A6 avant and now MB GLC ( all AWD cars ) and I wouldn't go back to a 2wd car as all 3 of these vehicles have definitely felt much more sure footed on our awful pot holed UK roads. Power distribution seems to be ideal combination of the benefits of both rear and front wheel drive.

I hated the FWD on the A6 saloon, loved the BMWs but useless in ice and snow even with winter tyres and weight in the boot which is why I reluctantly changed.
I drove this car the other day to my woodwork evening class. 15km each way on back roads on snow and ice in a soft-top car with no heater in temperatures of -32C. Does that count as dedication, addiction, or stupidity?

All 3. - Wouldn't catch me doing that :lol:
 
Well, I bit the bullet and now have a set of CrossClimate SUV's. You can all thank me as that's the end of the snow for this year. Had to smile when I arrived as they were a bit mob handed, and no other cars in, so it was bit like a Formula 1 pit stop :D
 
RogerS":2crnjgom said:
Well, I bit the bullet and now have a set of CrossClimate SUV's. You can all thank me as that's the end of the snow for this year. Had to smile when I arrived as they were a bit mob handed, and no other cars in, so it was bit like a Formula 1 pit stop :D
Good, please let us know how you gr8 on with them, especially if there is more white stuff!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
 
RogerS":37p4jbf5 said:
Well, I bit the bullet and now have a set of CrossClimate SUV's. You can all thank me as that's the end of the snow for this year. Had to smile when I arrived as they were a bit mob handed, and no other cars in, so it was bit like a Formula 1 pit stop :D

Plenty of rain in the forecast so you will soon see the benefits :D
 
Interesting discussion this, and nice to see that people in UK are talking about this ("at long last" IMO). All the best to those who've already taken the plunge, and hopefully, the following may help waiverers to decide in favour.

The general situation here in Switzerland may help with decisions, where, when I first permanently moved here in 1990, I'd never heard of winter tyres, apart from the studded version which I'd only experienced on hire cars in Scandinavia (studded tyres are banned here BTW).

It may be that the situation here is a bit different to UK generally speaking, but contrary to popular belief, not all of Switzerland is mountainous. For example, I live "in der niederungen", i.e. it's quite low down here (400M ASL), and although hilly (often, say about 20% or so gradients), in a normal year we won't normally get more than 6 inches of snow at any one time down here. And "down here in the flat lands" we don't have an army of snow ploughs just standing by either - for example, our village of roughly 1,500 people has one snow plough (a Unimog with an attachment).

Although the "major" roads in/out of the village (bus routes, etc) are ploughed and gritted almost immediately after a fall, and thereafter as required, they'll only get around to the rest of the village such as my (residential) road a day or so after a snow fall. Generally the roads are often quite narrow, some corners are quite tight, and as said, it's often quite hilly. In general I'd describe our area as being somewhat like small villages and smaller towns in Devon or the Lake District.

A "normal" winter here will see lowest overnight temps of around -10 deg C, (we did have -17 C for a few days one year) and day time summer highest temps are typically in the mid/high 30s C (though this year we touched 41 deg C for a few days).

Winter tyres are standard here and are normally fitted once the ambient temperatures regularly comes down to about 6 or 7 degrees C. They are then replaced with summer tyres once the temps regularly get up above that again (and with the snow all gone of course). In a typical year that means a change to winter tyres sometime in October or perhaps November (due to the very hot summer and long India summer this year past though, we changed ours in December). And change back is normally about late March/early April, again temperature dependant, and once the snow is all gone of course.

BTW winter tyres are NOT legally required here, but if you do have an accident, even if you can prove it's not your fault, you will have a HUGE problem getting your insurance to pay out. That's in contrast with Germany where within the last few years winter tyres have become a legal requirement, though I'm not sure exactly what the change trigger point is. I'm also not sure about the situation in France although where I live we're only about 20 mins drive from the borders to both those countries (nearest points). I'm also not sure about the legalities in Austria (about 2 hours drive from here).

The main point about the winter tyres is that the grip is FAR above what is normal for summer tyres, even on loose or hard packed snow/ice. HOWEVER you do not drive like you're fireproof and can plough through snow banks, blizzards, or ignore the normal rules about no sharp acceleration, braking, and steering! You can't do those things with impunity, but if you do get into a skid it's normally only mild, and easy to control.

But what you can do is reckon that with winter tyres, getting up and down pretty steep snow covered hills and round sharp corners you'll have much more grip than you'd ever get with summer tyres. So if you get caught on roads before the snow ploughs have been out; if you're crossing lanes on the Autobahn where the snow ploughs have left frozen ridges; or you're in a car park or driving where melted snow has run across cambered roads and then refrozen at night; then you're MUCH better off and safer than with summer tyres.

On my car (a bog standard Peugeot 308 automatic) I have a set of 4 x Michelin Alpin Green, and my wife's 207 manual has similar (I'm not going out to the garage to look). Both cars are front wheel drive; mine a 6 speed auto, hers a 5 speed manual.

Having never owned or driven an automatic while in UK I should perhaps say what the Peugeot auto box is like, in case UK spec cars vary.

Apart from the normal "P", "R", and "N" settings, the normal setting is "D", when the box just does it's own thing and changes up and down all by itself. There are also 2 secondary settings for the "D" position, "S" for "sport" (when the box holds each gear to a higher rpm than normal before changing up), and "*" which is the snow/ice setting where the box moves up through the gears as soon as you get moving, getting to 6th as soon as it "thinks" it's OK. In winter with snow and ice I normally drive in "D*", otherwise just in the "D" setting. The box also allows manual changing where, just like a manual box, it will stay in whatever gear you select until you change up or down again. But it's very seldom that I use that facility, except up in "the real mountains".

Lots of winter tyres are available and you can specify whatever you wish (there's a large range freely available), but we just normally let the garage fit whatever they recommend. For our cars they cost the equivalent of about 180 quid each here, and fitting a set of 4, including balancing, will cost about 80 quid equivalent. The normal "deal" when buying a new car is to negotiate with the dealer for a set of 4 spare wheels with a set of winter tyres already fitted (steel wheels usually, especially if the summer tyres are on ali wheels) - it's a further "discount discussion point" on the overall car price!

You can either store the 4 extra wheels/tyres at home and change them yourself twice a year; or more often, as in our case, the garage stores the unused wheels/tyres for you (for a nominal charge) and you book an appointment when you want to change over.

As well as being much better than summer tyres on snow and ice, winter tyres also offer much more grip in the wet, and on muddy roads, etc, so in practice they stay fitted for 4 to 5 months per year. Typical life for us is about 4 seasons (say 50 to 70,000 Km), with summer tyres perhaps doing about 5 seasons (say 100,000 Km). Normally we need to change tyres in pairs, rather than sets of 4 at a time (front wheel drive cars remember).

But if winter tyres are so good, why change to summer tyres at all?

Well I'm not a tyre expert but we are TOLD that the winter rubber compound is softer (maybe, how do you tell?) and on winter tyres you can certainly see the tread pattern does look different. So they SAY that if fitted all year round winter tyres would wear out much more quickly. Personally I don't really know that for certain, never tried it, I just do as everyone else does ("when in Rome" and all that).

BTW, in contrast to a post above, our winter tyres are noticeably noisier than summer tyres - not hugely so, but during the first few Km after change you certainly do notice the increased noise level, regardless of the road surface (or reduced noise when back to summer tyres).

Unlike up to about 10 years ago (when you had to paste a special speed limit sticker on your speedo - "slower" winter tyres were a bit cheaper) there are no speed restrictions on winter tyres now. And tyre pressure settings are the same, summer and winter.

But overall, having been forced (once only!) to try and drive a car with summer tyres up the snow covered hill to our house (sharp curve half way up and about a 15% gradient) and having been unable, even driving backwards (rear wheel drive car) I'm now convinced that winter tyres, used sensibly, are the bull dogs whatsits. I'm also convinced that if winter tyres were the norm in UK then you would not see the miles of stopped traffic on the motorways to and from Dover (just an example) that we see on the TV news here every time there's been more than an inch or so of snow!

As another bit of info, the mountain passes here all have big traffic signals advising if the pass is open or closed, (sometimes closed) or only open if driving with chains (mandatory to fit before starting and mandatory to remove once through - there are special laybys for the purpose). I would have thought it wouldn't have been too expensive to apply something similar to things like the trans-Pennine roads in UK.

All the above applies to light commercial and service vehicles here too (vans, minibuses, ambulances, etc). I'm not sure what the rules are for HGVs and not being a biker I have no idea what goes on with them, although the number of powerful motorbikes seen on the roads in winter here is noticeably reduced (I think people just garage them over winter - we have a system here where you can take a vehicle off the road for a period and consequently pay less road tax and insurance).

Anyway I hope the above is interesting and helps UK drivers a bit. A few years ago when UK had a particularly bad winter I remember the then Minister of Transport (can't remember the name but I think it was in the Con/Lib coalition government time) saying on Radio 4 that winter tyres are not generally appropriate for UK. Either plain ignorance or just disingenuous (IMO only of course, but based on the above practical experience) :D
 
Thanks AES for taking the time to post this. Fascinating and you raise an interesting point...ie are all season tyres, like the CrossClimates, considered 'winter' tyres ? This would have a huge bearing if they were not and one were to travel to Europe in winter.

That aside, went out today on a very wet road with a lot of surface water. Oh my...oh me, oh my. Phenomenal. That's all I can say. Even standing water is dispersed far better than the previous Continental tyres that I thought were good. Seriously thinking about putting them on the S2000.
 
RogerS":3bxfkc4q said:
Thanks AES for taking the time to post this. Fascinating and you raise an interesting point...ie are all season tyres, like the CrossClimates, considered 'winter' tyres ? This would have a huge bearing if they were not and one were to travel to Europe in winter.

That aside, went out today on a very wet road with a lot of surface water. Oh my...oh me, oh my. Phenomenal. That's all I can say. Even standing water is dispersed far better than the previous Continental tyres that I thought were good. Seriously thinking about putting them on the S2000.

I personally think all season tyres are very good. They improve road handling in the wet significantly and the difference in snow is huge. Summer tyres, esp with low tread would get stuck on an incline in snow. Mind you, I had some all seasons on last year which were down to the limit -they were pants on snow, but then the tread is what provides the grip.

You wont be disappointed. All season tyres are about the same price as a decent brand summer tyre.

Ive not noticed any increase in road noise
 
Roger, sorry I just don't know enough about tyres (winter or summer!) to say whether or not your Cross Climate tyres are the same as Swiss winter tyres or not. But glad you found the post useful anyway.
 
Hi AES, good post, thanks for that. =D>

There are a couple of things though. I don't know how long since you drove in the UK but my experience suggests that the standards in the UK are appalling compared to some other European countries with the exceptions being Italy and maybe France.

It doesn't take snow to stop the traffic, a bit of drizzle or a gloomy day both of which are common, causes many drivers to sit bolt upright, nose almost touching the windscreen doing 20mph and foot resting on the brake pedal. Heaven help us when the roads are icy and all hell breaks loose after a fall of snow no matter how minute.

It's my opinion that because we get snow so infrequently drivers don't know or have forgotten how to handle it. We have a hill to one side of our village and it regularly gets blocked by traffic. I can guarantee that stuck at the head of the blockage is a little car with a driver who should have stayed in bed. Even winter tyres wouldn't help someone who doesn't know what gear to be in, not to spin the wheels or use the brakes gently. #-o

Love Switzerland BTW, have been a couple of times and wifes' aunt and uncle have lived there for 50 years. My mother was Austrian so done some of that as well, last trip over the Grossglockner was stunning, it might not be this year but we're planning an extended trip in the motorhome before too long.
 
Lons":3n016kcz said:
Hi AES, good post, thanks for that. =D>

A: Thank you Lons. Glad you found it useful.

I don't know how long since you drove in the UK but my experience suggests that the standards in the UK are appalling compared to some other European countries with the exceptions being Italy and maybe France.

A: Last time is about 5 years ago (short distances, hire car- last time with own car driving all the way there/back, plus a fair bit in UK itself, roughly 10 years). But yes about poor standards in France & Italy (Spain too, often). Haven't really seen enough of recent UK standards to comment.

Love Switzerland BTW, ..... it might not be this year but we're planning an extended trip in the motorhome before too long.

A: OK, make sure you stop by for a cuppa & a chat. As said, very near the French & German borders in NW Switz - Saint Jacob or Weil-am-Rhein. On the way to just about everywhere.
 

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