MFT and Rail Square - my thoughts

[Jacob]

No, not necessary. Various methods to check. Easiest, measure diagonals for equality.

So if one is out do you have to fill/redrill etc and then check them all again? I can see this taking some time!
How did people cut sheet accurately before the invention of the MFT?

 

[Spectric]

How did people cut sheet accurately before the invention of the MFT?

We do tend to forget that people were working with wood way before electricity and you only have to visit some of the Uk's heritage properties to see what skills they had. Today we seem to look for quick and easy solutions but the past can still teach us a thing or two.

 

[ScaredyCat]

We do tend to forget that people were working with wood way before electricity and you only have to visit some of the Uk's heritage properties to see what skills they had. Today we seem to look for quick and easy solutions but the past can still teach us a thing or two.

I've joined the National Trust deliberately and willfully so I can go and visit houses at look how they made stuff. My wife likes the history, so it works out quite well.

 

[Spectric]

I've joined the National Trust deliberately and willfully so I can go and visit houses at look how they made stuff. My wife likes the history, so it works out quite well.

To see how things were done take a visit to Belsay hall and gardens, just North of Newcastle. It has had a lot of stuff removed like fireplaces and such but you can see behind things and see how wall paneling and such was done back then and makes a nice day out.

 

[MattChow]

I've had a few requests for the .stl file.
You can find it here:
http://www.blog.cusick.org.uk/3d-printing/#stantonclip-stl

@gcusick thanks for the file, much appreciated. Do you have a recommendation on the screw to use with it?

 

[gcusick]

@gcusick thanks for the file, much appreciated. Do you have a recommendation on the screw to use with it?

I used these:
https://www.axminstertools.com/ujk-technology-t-slot-bolts-m6-x-25mm-pkt-10-103410
hth

 

[mc281]

As a novice who has just dived into the world of MFT, I thought it might be interesting for me to share my experiences with my first go at it. It's my first attempt at building and using an MFT and a rail square. I wish I knew at the start what I now know and perhaps I can save others a bit of time if they are on the same trajectory and also thinking about investing in an MFT setup.

I have spent about 4 or 5 weekends with the setup, making workshop cabinets/benches. I have a sort of 'build thread' on it so won't go into any more detail.

What can it do

• It makes square cuts, quickly and accurately
• With some accessories it can also eliminate the need for marking up
• It can help you assemble things square
• Note: making >200mm cuts needs a different method to <200mm cuts (see below for more on this) but both can be done

For context, here is my current setup:
View attachment 155900

Here is my setup before I built my benches:
View attachment 155899

Important note on my setup
I do NOT have a hinge for my rail. I am reliant on using the dogs to align the rail and the workpiece at 90 degrees to one another. Many of the constraints listed below are specific to my setup and could perhaps be solved (or reduced) with a hinged rail.

What can't it do (without a hinged rail)

• A standard 718mm deep MFT cannot be used to cut anything wider than about 550mm as you need a long dog at top and bottom of workpiece (to support the rail) which reduces the usable width of the table by about 150mm
• In my experience that is quite a restriction for the stuff I am building as pretty much every cut is wider than 500mm.
• You CAN use the table lengthways, but then you would need an extra table for support (I do have an extra table but only after I built my second unit).
• Anyway, it was all a bit chicken and egg for me as I needed the MFT to make the cuts and I needed to make the cuts to build the MFT (and all my other units)
• Once I had the MFT bench and another bench of the same height I found that I could achieve pretty much any MFT type task....
• BUT, up until that point I was having to use my sawhorses as a temporary workstation (I used two long (2.5m) lengths of 4x2 stretched across my sawhorses with a sheet of plywood on top)
• It would be good to have an MFT table that was 2.7 x 1.5m, and then you wouldn't need a rail square, but that is too big for most workshops I imagine
• Fortunately I had a rail square from the start (which I bought at the same time as my MFT top) and this allowed me to work on the large sheets and make large cuts
• Yes I could have just marked the sheet up at top and bottom and lined up the track with my pencil marks but I am aiming for speed and accuracy as for me that is the whole point of the MFT. If I start messing around making marks all over my workpiece and lining up the rail its not so big an upgrade over a standard track saw setup. IMO

Rail square

• The Benchdogs square I bought is definitely a nice piece of equipment - I know it's expensive but it works. It comes with a little calibration report showing the measured accuracy on all dimensions and the accuracy appears to be plenty good enough for making cabinets (but perhaps not quite up to scratch for space telescopes)
• I also bought the 'fence+tape+stop' thing that attaches to the square (I think it was about £60) which can be used to rapidly set your chosen cut length and simply line up the square and it will cut at the exact right length
• I created a 200mm calibration block so that I could fix the rail square to the fence in the right place every time I use it. It would be better to have a longer calibration block I think because when I calibrate mine to the 200 block it is slightly off at 600mm (less than a mm but even so I would like it to be spot on without extra tuning)
• In practice I tend to just leave the square attached to one of my rails and keep the other rail for cuts without the rail. I have two 1.5m rails
• In use the rail square is quite the dream - simply set the little blue slider to your width, turn the screw to lock it and away you go. Just line up the rail and make your cut and you have a perfectly square and accurate cut with almost zero setup time.
• It's actually quite liberating to be able to get cuts that accurate and repeatable with so little effort, no measuring, no marking, just move the little slider and go.
• If you are making multiple cuts of the same size its super rapid.

My calibration block:
View attachment 155901
200mm block in use to set the fence to exactly 200mm:
View attachment 155902

once calibrated you don't need the block anymore you just move the little blue slider to the lengths you want

Thin cuts

• If you are cutting a width of more than 200mm, then the rail square works really well. In this case you are measuring to the left of the rail using the etched measurements on the fence. The fence goes up to about 650mm with one part of the fence and if you want more you can add the second bit of fence which will get you to about 1.1m. I never actually tried cutting anything longer than 600mm so haven't tried attaching the extra fence extension yet.
• If you want to cut something which is less than 200mm then you are going to have to get creative.
• The method I used was to setup a 'stop block' - a piece of timber clamped down at the right place so you can push your workpiece up to it and guarantee the right length of cut
• Now your focus shifts to the right side of the rail.
• Basically the rail is about 200mm wide so about 200mm of the workpiece ends up underneath the rail, that's essentially why there are two methods needed. It took me a while to get my head around that.
• A pair of rail clips would be really good when using this technique as its a bit fiddly to get everything lined up and squared up against dogs and the stop block

Tips

• Make your first mark on your MFT top as early as possible and get the first mark out of the way. You can use spoiler boards under your workpiece and save having to damage your MFT top BUT the convenience of NOT having to protect the table top with every cut is quite significant so I have decided not to protect the top as I don't want to lose efficiency. You can replace the top for £40 anyway.
• On my makita equipment, the rail is 4mm thick, therefore I set my depth on the track saw to the material thickness + 4mm. So if I'm cutting 18mm ply I set my saw to 18+4+1 = 23mm. This will make a 1mm deep mark in the MFT top.
• I would say that if you DONT want to buy a rail square and you have a need for regular cutting of full sheets (8' x 4') then an MFT is not going to solve all of your track saw issues.
• My 1.5m long rails are a bit of a pain sometimes and I would like a shorter one to give me the option.
• Clamps - make sure your clamps will fit through the holes. Mine dont and fortunately I designed in an overhang around the MFT which means I can at least clamp at the edges until I get a clamp that CAN fit through the holes

my rail clamp NOT fitting through the hole in the MFT top:
View attachment 155909

My opinion
As I mentioned earlier, take this with a pinch of salt as I am pretty much a total amateur but here are my thoughts having spent a few days with an MFT:

• A rail square is essential for sheet goods and pretty much a dream to use if you like speed, quality, repeatability and efficiency (as I do)
• A rail square is semi essential if you plan to regularly cut anything wider than 500, because a standard 700mm MFT top won't do it unless you turn it lengthways AND have an extra table for supporting the workpiece. This is something I didn't even consider so really think about this one before you dive in and start buying things to support your needs.
• If I was going down the 'NON-rail square' route, I would 100% invest in a fence+stop for the MFT top - both Benchdogs and UJK both make something similar that can be quickly inserted into the table or taken out when you need the full table for larger workpieces
• I have noticed that the UJK one does have a stop but doesn't have a tape so that feels like a miss in my opinion
• For me (in my little experience) the fence and stop system is where a lot of the efficiency is - it gets rid of marking up, which does remove some human error but it's the speed and efficiency of it that I love the most.
• My rail square (plus little fence+stop) is the thing I use 90% of the time, as oppossed to using the dogs to align the rail and workpiece at 90 degrees
• IF I had a fence+stop for the MFT top also (which I don't) then I might use the square only 50% and the MFT the other 50% for everything under 500mm wide.
• MFT is useful for assembly operations, not just for cutting. For example when I made my drawers I simply lined all the sides up against my dogs, then clamped them down before screwing in the pocket holes.
• I wish I had bought some rail clips at £15 - it's totally useable as is but it would be much better with the clips
• Not having a hinge restricts my max width of workpiece to 550mm if using he MFT without the rail square
• If I installed a hinge I suppose I could increase my max cut width to about 700mm - that would really change things as lot of things are 600mm wide (probably not a coincidence)
• Note, my workshop has 2.1m headroom and a 950mm bench height - so using a hinged rail could be problematic with a 1.5m rail as it would hit the ceiling! Something to consider if you are planning an MFT setup yourself and have a UK shed or garden room with similar height issues!

Overall, I am 100% convinced that the MFT + rail square route was a good road for me to go down - I really enjoy using the system, and it allowed me to build things faster than I would have done otherwise. Its potentially more accurate also which really helps with cabinets and drawers.

For me its hasn't been merely a novelty, it has immediately become a part of my standard workflow and I am using it every time I use the workshop now. Ultimately, this has removed the need for me to have a table saw, so in that respect it's a win, but its also made my track saw (which I already liked) significantly faster at getting the job done.

In a nutshell, here is the workflow:
1. set the length (in this example to 600mm)
View attachment 155911

2. Line up the rail and run the saw down it and voila; 600mm:
View attachment 155912

Future upgrades

• CLIPS: A couple of rail clips at £15 are a no brainer. Yes you can make them but you need some hardware to attach to the rail so I may as well just buy the clips.
• FENCE: Definitely a fence + stop for the MFT top is something I would like to have
• GUIDES: I would like some parallel guides for helping with thin cuts (<200mm) - I need to give that some more thought, not entirely sure if that would solve anything or just be something else to faff with. At the moment, the stop block situation is working OK ish.
• HINGE: this is the big upgrade but typically quite expensive - it would take my cross cut capacity to 700 from 550, which is a more significant impact than the 150mm shortfall would suggest (as a lot of cuts are 600mm).

Finally
I will iterate once more than I am not writing the above as an expert on this topic, I am only sharing the information from a beginner perspective - it is information which I wish I had at the start - I think this will help somebody in a similar position but it certainly wont be useful for seasoned users.

I am sure Peter Millard would die laughing if he read this post, but I honestly learned a lot of this stuff on the fly after I started to use it without fully realising it beforehand - I hope its useful for somebody! And finally, if you are thinking about getting an MFT / track saw, Peter's youtube channel is an information goldmine if you don't know that already

Martin

 

[paulrbarnard]

Nice write up.

Couple of tips from me as a user of a small MFT. (You do mention the first but there is a lot of text )
1. Don’t think in only one direction. You can use the long dimension of the bench as the width. This lets you cut wider boards. I have extension tables that fix to my MFT cart that help with this.
2. For small parts simply cut yourself a 200mm wide board in 6mm material and use it as a spacer under the rail. I have stops on my fence so if I want a 10mm cut I set the stop at 210 and use the 200mm spacer against the fence and rail. Then push the part up to the spacer. I use a clamp on the free end of the spacer to hold it square against the fence. It’s much easier that setting up for a right hand cut.
3. I find the most useful addition to my set up is parallel guides. You don’t give these a mention at all. I use these for the initial break down of the board to widths. First cut is without guides to remove a few mm of the edge then the parallel guides to cut the widths from the sheet. Then on to the MFT with fence to cut the lengths. I originally bought a benchdogs rail square but simply don’t use it as the parallel guides and fence approach works way better for me.

 

[Spectric]

I find the most useful addition to my set up is parallel guides. You don’t give these a mention at all. I use these for the initial break down of the board to widths.

Yes parallel guides are very helpful with the longer cuts, I found that a rail square is great for the shorter cuts but the parallel guides will always deliver a parallel edge over a distance.

Once you get your head around the geometry then it all falls into place, it also highlights where errors can creep in so you can work round them. I now tend to use the guides and square more than an MFT top which gets more use in assembly.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Yes parallel guides are very helpful with the longer cuts, I found that a rail square is great for the shorter cuts but the parallel guides will always deliver a parallel edge over a distance.

Once you get your head around the geometry then it all falls into place, it also highlights where errors can creep in so you can work round them. I now tend to use the guides and square more than an MFT top which gets more use in assembly.

My problem with the square was getting it square. I found the grip strips on the back of the rail made it difficult to nudge the square against the edge while simultaneously aligning to my cut mark. I had enough examples of not getting a square cut that I lost faith in the approach.

 

[Molynoox]

Nice write up.

Couple of tips from me as a user of a small MFT. (You do mention the first but there is a lot of text )
1. Don’t think in only one direction. You can use the long dimension of the bench as the width. This lets you cut wider boards. I have extension tables that fix to my MFT cart that help with this.
2. For small parts simply cut yourself a 200mm wide board in 6mm material and use it as a spacer under the rail. I have stops on my fence so if I want a 10mm cut I set the stop at 210 and use the 200mm spacer against the fence and rail. Then push the part up to the spacer. I use a clamp on the free end of the spacer to hold it square against the fence. It’s much easier that setting up for a right hand cut.
3. I find the most useful addition to my set up is parallel guides. You don’t give these a mention at all. I use these for the initial break down of the board to widths. First cut is without guides to remove a few mm of the edge then the parallel guides to cut the widths from the sheet. Then on to the MFT with fence to cut the lengths. I originally bought a benchdogs rail square but simply don’t use it as the parallel guides and fence approach works way better for me.

1. I did mention that, bit it will no doubt have got lost in the ludicrous account of detail - this is always my problem
2. That is utterly brilliant, why didn't I think of it. Thanks, I love it!
3. I did mention parallel guides, see point one

Martin

 

[Molynoox]

Yes parallel guides are very helpful with the longer cuts, I found that a rail square is great for the shorter cuts but the parallel guides will always deliver a parallel edge over a distance.

Once you get your head around the geometry then it all falls into place, it also highlights where errors can creep in so you can work round them. I now tend to use the guides and square more than an MFT top which gets more use in assembly.

I haven't tried the parallel guides yet but my concern is it running out of square with repeat small cuts across a board.

Let's say your top guide is set at 100mm and your bottom one is set at 100.5mm. If you do 10 cuts the board will then be 5mm out of square. That's quite a bit. It also means cut #10 was 5mm out of square and #9 4.5mm out.

I'm sure this isn't a problem at all as nobody seems to be taking about it

M

 

[Spectric]

Let's say your top guide is set at 100mm and your bottom one is set at 100.5mm.

This will come down to your parallel guides, I use benchdogs and have no issues. Give this video a watch

These guides are laser etched and are precision engineered plus you need to remember we are working with wood and do not have to work to thou's .

 

[paulrbarnard]

I haven't tried the parallel guides yet but my concern is it running out of square with repeat small cuts across a board.

Let's say your top guide is set at 100mm and your bottom one is set at 100.5mm. If you do 10 cuts the board will then be 5mm out of square. That's quite a bit. It also means cut #10 was 5mm out of square and #9 4.5mm out.

I'm sure this isn't a problem at all as nobody seems to be taking about it

M

You don’t get the cumulative error if you do the parallel cuts before the square bits. The two sides will be parallel to the 0.5mm in 2440mm if you start with a full sheet and then you can cut at right angle to either side to bring the parts to finished size, either with a rail square or MFT fence in my case.

Yes I did miss the parallel guides in your original post

 

[Croolis]

I bought a cheap rail square to use with the Macallister tracksaw I also just bought (oh that Peter Millard). All to use with making my metal shed workshop wooden floor. Rail square from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B49HVXP3?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

Went to use it and, although I didn't try very hard 'cos I was in a rush (just chose not to use it), the locking knobs would not securely hold the square to the rail, no matter how tightly I wound them. Bit of pressure and the thing would shift against the rail, which would imply you never do get a square fit as there's play. Maybe it's the aluminium bit that fits into the track is too small, dunno. It's supposed to fit Makita rail, which is what the Macallister is. Dunno, will have to look into it.

Good thread, though, cheers. Did not want to spend on those Bench Dog ones lol, though might have wasted my money on the cheapo. Will see.

 

[Spectric]

A decent rail square is not cheap for a reason, precision engineering comes at a price so rather than waste £29 on that one you would be better of with a straight edge like a length of angle iron and just mark things up using the good old pythagoras theorem to check your marks are square. If you look at the ones from the likes of Benchdogs they are rock solid but like all tools will have limitations. I use parallel guides for the longer cuts and then a rail square to cut each of these to size.

 

[Sideways]

My most used marking tools after the combi square are a good 600mm (and metre) steel rule and a veritas ruler stop. I set this to length and use it like a pair of parallel guides from the edge of my board to the back of the saw track - just one end at a time.

Every time you move one end of the track back onto the stop, the other end moves too, so you have to iterate between the ends, but after about 4 repetitions (which doesn't take long at all) any "walking" of the track is barely detectable and you can finalise and clamp the track at each end.
OK, it takes a minute to run through this routine and for a pro it would get tedious but when you're not doing this every day, it gets you the same level of accuracy without another gizmo.

 

[MikeJhn]

Electricians used MFT's long before they became a bench.