MFT and Rail Square - my thoughts

[Molynoox]

If only there was a way to somehow add to the dimensions to make it bigger…

Fair point

 

[LoftyDave]

I bought a pair of the UJK track clips a while back, but found them a bit of a pain to connect and disconnect to/from the dogs. On one of @petermillard ’s videos, he mentioned David Stanton’s rail clips. I’ve seen versions made from 6mm ply, and you can buy them from David’s etsy (Stanton Dog Locks Sold as a Pair - Etsy) store, but I made a 3D printed pair

View attachment 156065

View attachment 156064
They’re a mirror-image pair that slide in the rail’s t-track and secure the rail very well.

If anyone is interested, I’m happy to share the stl file.

Yes please, I would like a copy of the STL file as well.

 

[gcusick]

Yes please, I would like a copy of the STL file as well.

I've had a few requests for the .stl file.
You can find it here:
http://www.blog.cusick.org.uk/3d-printing/#stantonclip-stl

 

[Systematic Renovations]

That was very informative, thank you.

How often do you find yourself using the sliding portion of your mitre saw now you have the MFT setup?

I plan to get a MFT and currently have a standard mitre saw so I was curious if you could do without a sliding mitre saw.

 

[Molynoox]

That was very informative, thank you.

How often do you find yourself using the sliding portion of your mitre saw now you have the MFT setup?

I plan to get a MFT and currently have a standard mitre saw so I was curious if you could do without a sliding mitre saw.

I don't think I have had it long enough to give you a meaningful / accurate answer. But I'll have a go

The mitre saw still rules for convenience, with that blade constantly hovering above the workpiece area, and simply pulled down when you are ready to cut... it can't be beaten for speed really. With my setup I wouldn't consider getting rid of the mitre saw.

With a hinge however... It would be a much closer call. No need to pick up the rail, put it on the workpiece, then pick up the saw and put it on rail. You still have to put the saw on the rail, but that doesn't really take long.

I think it will come down to what you are cutting... Specifically what lengths. If they are shorter lengths then I feel that the MFT will give the mitre saw a run for it's money speed wise, especially if you have a fence and a stop block type setup because then you don't need to do mark ups and get your tape out. You can of course get that sort of a setup for a mitre saw, but I don't have one and the MFT has that advantage in my world.

If cutting longer lengths, MFT could feel a bit clunky and likely out of range of the fence/tape/stop setup.

Don't forget - I know nothing

Martin

EDIT: I almost never use the sliding part of my mitre saw, I tend to use it mostly like a chop saw and just cut things 100mm deep like 4x2. I think part of the reason for that is I forget it can do the sliding bit.

 

[HOJ]

The rail squares? Theres a lot of choices, ranging from 20 quid up.
If, in practice, a rail square is within a mm over 2.4, its worth the 240 quid in the long run..... but itd have to be that accurate or better. Of course at that length a parallel guide is the right tool, but how far do you go?

Referencing to parallel rail guides If I have a lot of the same width long cuts to make, I knock up some simple gauge blocks to set my rail distance off the edge of the board just pop them on the board edge held with a spring clamp pull the rail up to it and off we go, for instance:


I bought the TSO rails square but only use it for cutting the width of the boards.

The other site method I use for breaking down full sheets is a simple 1m x 2m (3"x2") timber frame that I set on trestles, then use the mft as and when for regular small cuts (good job I have a big van and work in big houses!!)

Another tip/item I use, for setting my flag stop's on the mft fence for repeat cuts, are simple offcuts of ply, cut them to the required length using the flag stop for reference, may have to move it to get it accurate, once it's correct screw on a stop that locates against the back of the rail, then if you want to go back later to make more of the same, no tape measuring needed, drop it on & move flag back up to it.



The main point I'm trying to make is that you don't need to spend out on gizmos & gadgets if you use a bit of lateral thinking, which to my mind is what woodworking is all about, and yes I have bought into this system, because my business needs have changed over the years, and will probably continue to do so, as I need to keep up with the times, as well as the demands and expectations of my customers.

 

[HOJ]

Oh and another little point, when i use my tso rail square it wants to tip the rail so for the sake of lateral thinking I fixed a couple of kitchen wall cabinet brackets on it, problem soved:



Just had a look at prices as well, never paid anything like they want for it now, thankfully..

 

[baldkev]

I had a mind numbing couple of hours this afternoon.... by the end I'd nearly lost the will to mft!
Just ordered these dogs off ebay to get me going.

 

[Molynoox]

Referencing to parallel rail guides If I have a lot of the same width long cuts to make, I knock up some simple gauge blocks to set my rail distance off the edge of the board just pop them on the board edge held with a spring clamp pull the rail up to it and off we go, for instance:
View attachment 156281

I bought the TSO rails square but only use it for cutting the width of the boards.

The other site method I use for breaking down full sheets is a simple 1m x 2m (3"x2") timber frame that I set on trestles, then use the mft as and when for regular small cuts (good job I have a big van and work in big houses!!)

Another tip/item I use, for setting my flag stop's on the mft fence for repeat cuts, are simple offcuts of ply, cut them to the required length using the flag stop for reference, may have to move it to get it accurate, once it's correct screw on a stop that locates against the back of the rail, then if you want to go back later to make more of the same, no tape measuring needed, drop it on & move flag back up to it.

View attachment 156286

The main point I'm trying to make is that you don't need to spend out on gizmos & gadgets if you use a bit of lateral thinking, which to my mind is what woodworking is all about, and yes I have bought into this system, because my business needs have changed over the years, and will probably continue to do so, as I need to keep up with the times, as well as the demands and expectations of my customers.

Very cool

 

[Molynoox]

I had a mind numbing couple of hours this afternoon.... by the end I'd nearly lost the will to mft!
Just ordered these dogs off ebay to get me going.

Have you tried lifting it yet

 

[baldkev]

Actually, no. The frame and top are still seperate and I was half thinking of a slide in cleat system to lock them together or simply having blocks glued and screwed to the frame and screwed to the top so it can be moved separately..... i was pondering that while dying of boredom, but didn't reach a conclusion.... any input welcome

 

[starfish]

Actually, no. The frame and top are still seperate and I was half thinking of a slide in cleat system to lock them together or simply having blocks glued and screwed to the frame and screwed to the top so it can be moved separately..... i was pondering that while dying of boredom, but didn't reach a conclusion.... any input welcome

not sure I want to carry that. perhaps some wheels like the kreg

 

[Molynoox]

Actually, no. The frame and top are still seperate and I was half thinking of a slide in cleat system to lock them together or simply having blocks glued and screwed to the frame and screwed to the top so it can be moved separately..... i was pondering that while dying of boredom, but didn't reach a conclusion.... any input welcome

Totally agree on keeping them separate but I don't think I would bother with anything more than blocks to locate it and hold for sideways movements. No need to screw down, it's not going anywhere is it, and then you can simply lift off the top when you want to move it.

Martin

 

[Molynoox]

As I mentioned a few posts back, I have been doing a bit more thinking and experimenting with the MFT and as a result I have a slightly improved understanding vs where I was a few weeks ago. I now see that there are a few extra options in terms of what setups you can have with the MFT and I have created a small table to try and get my head around it all. I figured this was worth sharing.

What I see, with my limited understanding so far, are 5 basic setups, as outlined in the table above. Each of the setups have different capabilities, the biggest factor is the cross cut capacity in my opinion, but I have also listed the relative accuracy of each and also the convenience factor. Convenience is primarily defined as what action you need to take 'between cuts', as this is the thing that slows you down I feel and hence something I thought was worth thinking about. It is the one area where the hinged rail setup rules as you just pivot the rail upwards instead of removing it.

Finally, the column labelled repeat cuts defines the accessory needed for each setup in order to achieve that - my view is that this is one of the nicest thing about using these setups, the ability to simply set a stop against a calibrated scale and then simply push the wood up against it and cut. And then repeat if needed. It is a slightly different thing needed for each setup, here are the two options

Repeat stop - for rail square
https://benchdogs.co.uk/products/rail-square-repeat-stop-festool-makita-triton-evolution-kreg
Fence - for MFT
https://benchdogs.co.uk/collections/benchdogs-bundles/products/the-fence-system-bundle
Of course this isn't an exhaustive list, its just my view on the MFT world as of today, and seeing as my understanding has evolved somewhat since I last posted I thought it worth updating the thread. As I mentioned at the start, it could be useful for somebody.

Anyway, I will explain the 5 options and my thoughts on each. First off, here is the sketch which I drew the other day when I was thinking about this stuff - its what got me thinking about this in the first place.

Setup 1 - 718mm MFT + Bench Dogs

This is the most basic setup of all, and gives you 550mm cross cut capacity using a standard 718mm MFT top. There is no rail square and no hinged rail with this setup, you need to use the bench dogs to align both the workpiece and also the rail such that they are at a guaranteed 90 degrees to one another. The fact that you need to use dog holes at both top and bottom of the MFT means that you only have 550mm of space for the workpiece to pass through and so that's your maximum cross cut using this setup. The length of cut is restricted only by your bench, but a standard MFT is 1102mm and so you could probably cut about that length if you didn't have additional support from another table,

Note that without a rail hinge, you need to keep taking the rail off the workpiece after every cut and placing it down somewhere. You also need to do the same with the track saw. If you are used to using a mitre saw this may feel a little clumsy to start with, especially if you are tight on space and dont have an additional bench to put the rail and saw.

Here are some pics showing the rail in position, and then the rail taken off and stored to the side, and then finally taken off and stored on an extra bench. Sounds a but trivial, but this sort of stuff really affects your workflow and its something to think about.

What is this setup good for

• It should get you 100% accuracy in terms of your cuts being 90 degrees
• Only suitable for 550mm crosscut maximum
• NOTE: you COULD get a larger crosscut capacity if you turned the table 90 degrees, but that could be a little problematic because you are then lining up the workpiece against a much smaller grid of dogs (they would be a maximum of about 550mm apart whereas when using the table the 'proper' way the dogs could be up to about 950mm apart). But it does mean your cross cut would increase to about 950mm which might get you out of trouble if you don't have any other options.

Need to continue in next post due to image limit.....

 

[Molynoox]

Setup 4 - Bench + Rail Square

I'm jumping around a bit just because this feels like a more natural order than the order I drew the sketches in. The big differences (over setup 1) here are:

• Much bigger crosscut capacity (up to 1500mm, but you could do even more)
• No need for an MFT top with holes in, any bench will do
• Portability (rail square easier to carry than MFT)
• Not as accurate

Crosscut max I have defined as 1500mm, but you are not really restricted at all as long as your rails are long enough. You will note from the table that the accuracy is listed as 'not perfect' unlike the MFT top + bench dogs option.
Note: I dont actually know the accuracy of the MFT tops with dog hole arrangement - the accuracy may differ from top to top or batch to batch etc, but my feeling is they are so accurate that the accuracy tolerance is basically insignificant and you can assume them to be perfectly accurate. But I dont actually know that.
Anyway, I measured the accuracy of the rail square using my setup as 0.6mm for every 640mm of crosscut. Here are some pictures showing how I measured that:

First I checked that the rail square was exactly 90 degrees to the rail using the dogs in the MFT - I know I said you don't need an MFT top to use the rail square but in theory this step isn't essential, I was just curious. It seemed to line up perfectly with the dogs.

The next step was to set the 'repeat stop' (I randomly set the length to 600mm) and then line it up against the workpiece. Instead of making a cut I simply drew a line using a sharp pencil and then measured the length at the top and bottom of the workpiece.

The pictures show the results - I think this shows 600.6mm at bottom and 601.2mm at the top. It doesnt matter that it isn't 600mm - this inaccuracy is partially down to the thickness of the pencil mark but also the fact that my repeat stop isn't perfectly calibrated yet. Anyway, what this means is that on this 640mm wide workpiece, the rail was off square by 0.6mm over that 640mm crosscut. Its interesting because when I check the rail and rail square against the dogs its absolutely perfect, so I can only assume that the 0.6mm is from the fact that its hard to get the rail sitting 100% perfectly as the grippy rubber underneath means it doesn't 'slide' around when aligning everything. Hard to explain, but anyway, I'm ok with the 0.6mm, and maybe I will do some more experiments one day and understand it further.

What is this setup good for

• Brilliant for cutting down full (8x4) sheets, or anything over 550mm for that matter.
• Brilliant for site work, for example when doing sheathing because you are often ripping down sheets and having to measure and mark up the board at both ends before cutting. With the rail square and the repeat stop you could just move the little blue slider to your width and then line it up and cut. Job done. Ok on a 2.4m rip I might lose 2mm of accuracy top to bottom but I'll take that, it only has to hit a 45mm wide joist or stud (target are is typically 22.5mm when two board meet).
• Great for when accuracy is not critically important, but speed and convenience is.
• Great for portability

continued in next post....

 

[Molynoox]

Setup 2 - MFT + Rail Square + Rail Square dogs

This is a setup that I sort of stumbled across quite recently (after my original post on this topic). The embarrassing thing is that I already had the kit for it having bought it at the same time as my rail square and I had sort of forgotten I had it. In my defense it was not quite as simple as just forgetting I had it, I did try it out initially but at the time I didn't really see the point and I had put it to one side as a sort of failed experiment. Anyway, I saw a picture of it recently and noticed something that had escaped me at the time; the crosscut capacity increases over the basic MFT + dogs setup (setup 1) because you don't need to have rail alignment dogs at top AND bottom you just need them at the top OR bottom to hold the rail in place.

Here are the special dogs you need:

Note that the smaller dogs are special ones that are same diameter as the blue stop collars - this allows you to line up the workpiece along the bottom without relying entirely on the small surface area of the square. In my case, because I have a repeat stop attached to the square, these little black dogs are useless because the repeat stop changes the offset - you can see this in the picture at the top.

Note, these dogs are really long, and you need space under your table for them. In my case, 3 of my edges are not suitable because I (brilliantly) aligned my torsion box edges with the holes above them. Luckily, the back edge was set flush with the top (I thought I might want to add t track later for face clamping) and this means that the holes are not blocked by the ply edges underneath, so I inserted the dogs there.

Oops:

Yay:

So with this setup your crosscut increases to lets say 1000mm, because your workpiece can 'hang' off the edge of your bench (it would be about 1000mm if you let it overhang your MFT by 300mm at the top). You could probably push it further but I doubt you would want to as the board may start to bend in the unsupported area, especially if it was something thin like 9mm MDF.

In the table you will note that I defined an interesting difference with the 'convenience' factor here, because strictly speaking you dont need to remove the rail to make your next cuts - you can slide the workpiece out from under the rail, which is being held at the right height by the rail square dogs (you can set the height of them using the blue stop collar on the dogs - mine are set to 18mm here)

However.....
Having said that, I found it tricky to manipulate the workpiece around underneath the rail because the rubber splinter guard tends to grip it quite well. You can lift the square out of the MFT slightly but then that doesn't really help because the rail just sags down onto the workpiece anyway.
Nope - not sure I get this one, despite the increased crosscut capacity over setup 1, its no better than setup 4 in my opinion.

What is this setup good for

• Honestly I don't know when you would use this setup
• For me it adds nothing over the rail square, in fact its more faffy, and yet its no more accurate than the rail square method in setup 4 as the dogs are not actually being used for the 90 deg alignment, they are used only to hold the square in place.
• Hoping somebody can explain this one to me??

 

[Molynoox]

Setup 3 - MFT + Hinge

OK so I don't have this setup, but its the standard MFT setup that probably most people are familiar with already. The key differences here (over setup 1) are the hinge adds convenience and speed, and yet the accuracy also stays spot on. Also, and critically in my experience, the crosscut improves to 620mm, which is a bit of a deal breaker if you want to cut 600mm wide boards. I ended up using my rail square for anything over 550mm, which is 'good enough' accuracy but it would be cool not to have to compromise the accuracy, just because I dont have the crosscut capacity on my MFT.

What is this setup good for

• Pretty much anything, providing its smaller than 620mm in width
• Perfect for when accuracy and speed are paramount
• Not so portable, but doable if you really want to
• Not great for cutting down full sheets, useless in fact

Setup 5 - 1500mm x 3000mm MFT

This is something of an ultimate setup, as long as you don't want portability. I've never used one, so I'm making assumptions and guesses a little bit but the general idea here is a massive 3m x 1.5m MFT table, preferably with a hinge. This then gives full accuracy, up to full size sheets, and with the convenience of a hinge. The ONLY downsize of this setup, as I see it, is the size and lack of portability, although I know some people are very determined and have done it / tried it - not mentioning any names :-D

What is this setup good for

• Absolutely anything, as long as you have a big workshop and/or a big van and big muscles if you need it to be portable.

I have also split this into two setups, 5bd and 5h, 5bd relies on benchdogs for aligning the rail, 5h has a hinge for that.

 

[Molynoox]

Setup 1s - MFT + Bench dogs 'special'

This is a small, and probably very niche, workaround I used today, it allowed me to cross cut at 600mm on my 718mm MFT (normal crosscut capacity 550mm) and yet still line up the rail against the dogs, as opposed to using a rail square for the cuts longer than 550mm. I had to shift the rail to the left hand edge of the MFT and then adjust the workpiece so that just a small part of it was sitting under the rail. I wanted to trim off just a few mm, in order to get a perfectly square edge on the board before using the rail square. I only wanted to do this because I wanted to measure the accuracy of the rail square setup (#4) and to do that I needed a perfectly square corner on the board.

Here you can see the 5mm offcut:

It was actually a slight taper, maybe 1mm from top to bottom, so worth making the cut to get this perfectly square before I did my rail square accuracy measurements.

In this picture I have pushed the workpiece up to the dogs to check for square and as expected (hoped) it was perfect. I drew a little square in the top left corner to identify that this was the good corner, and the good two edges.

That is all the setups explained, hope that made sense. I find the table I included at the start useful for summarising and getting my head around the different options and making a choice between them depending on what I need to achieve. I'm still learning and although this is basic stuff for most people its all new to me and its not yet instinctive yet. Thinking it through like this has helped me though, and hopefully others also.

General observation on rail length
The 1.5m long rail is really quite annoying (across all setups) and I would like something more like 800 or 900mm long so it isn't hanging over the end of the table all the time. I still need a 1.5m rail for cutting full sheets down, its the perfect size for that actually, but I do have two 1.5m rails and when working with smaller workpieces, say 600mm or less, a smaller rail would be a nice upgrade. I am actually thinking about cutting on of my 1.5m rails down to 1.2m - this still gives me 2.7 total if I joined both rails which allows me to do a rip cut on a full sheet, but it reduces one rail by 300mm, which isn't perfect but it gets me halfway there and for zero cots or compromise.

Note: Its nice having two rails, as I can leave the rail square permo attached to one of them. Its pretty easy to remove it, but not as easy as not removing it.

My summary

• Setup 1 is a good first option to get started with MFT as its accurate and simple, HOWEVER make sure you get rail clips (or make them) and also make sure you don't need to cut anything wider than 550mm, or this won't work for you.
• Setup 3 is a bit of a dream setup, except its not portable, it can't handle full sheets and the hinges are expensive. If you make the millard ply hinge and add it to a standard 718mm MFT it would solve most of those issues - with the exception that for full sheet breakdowns you need to measure and mark as per normal track saw setup.
• Setup 4 is a brilliant option if you want portability and regularly cut large sheets and / or dont need to worry about mm accuracy. Adding a repeat stop to this setup gives a really slick setup - fast and pretty accurate. Also note that 0.6mm over a 640mm cross cut is probably sufficient for vast majority of tasks including cabinet making
• Setup 5 is the ultimate workshop setup, but too big for site work IMO.
• Setup 2 is a total oddball and I haven't figured it out yet.

Of course there are lots of other options that could perhaps take the best bits from each of these and hit the sweet spot for each individual user. For example maybe setup one but with a 800mm deep MFT top (instead of 718mm) would give a fully accurate 630mm crosscut capacity, without the need for an expensive hinge. Throw in some £15 rail clips and you have a fully functional MFT setup that will handle most tasks - it would also be inexpensive and could be the perfect entry model.

Anyway, I will leave it there for now I am very interested to hear about any other setups I have missed, or more importantly for any corrections with what I have said.

Martin

 

[BigDean]

Setup 1s - MFT + Bench dogs 'special'
View attachment 156403

This is a small, and probably very niche, workaround I used today, it allowed me to cross cut at 600mm on my 718mm MFT (normal crosscut capacity 550mm) and yet still line up the rail against the dogs, as opposed to using a rail square for the cuts longer than 550mm. I had to shift the rail to the left hand edge of the MFT and then adjust the workpiece so that just a small part of it was sitting under the rail. I wanted to trim off just a few mm, in order to get a perfectly square edge on the board before using the rail square. I only wanted to do this because I wanted to measure the accuracy of the rail square setup (#4) and to do that I needed a perfectly square corner on the board.

Here you can see the 5mm offcut:
View attachment 156404
It was actually a slight taper, maybe 1mm from top to bottom, so worth making the cut to get this perfectly square before I did my rail square accuracy measurements.

In this picture I have pushed the workpiece up to the dogs to check for square and as expected (hoped) it was perfect. I drew a little square in the top left corner to identify that this was the good corner, and the good two edges.
View attachment 156405

That is all the setups explained, hope that made sense. I find the table I included at the start useful for summarising and getting my head around the different options and making a choice between them depending on what I need to achieve. I'm still learning and although this is basic stuff for most people its all new to me and its not yet instinctive yet. Thinking it through like this has helped me though, and hopefully others also.

General observation on rail length
The 1.5m long rail is really quite annoying (across all setups) and I would like something more like 800 or 900mm long so it isn't hanging over the end of the table all the time. I still need a 1.5m rail for cutting full sheets down, its the perfect size for that actually, but I do have two 1.5m rails and when working with smaller workpieces, say 600mm or less, a smaller rail would be a nice upgrade. I am actually thinking about cutting on of my 1.5m rails down to 1.2m - this still gives me 2.7 total if I joined both rails which allows me to do a rip cut on a full sheet, but it reduces one rail by 300mm, which isn't perfect but it gets me halfway there and for zero cots or compromise.

Note: Its nice having two rails, as I can leave the rail square permo attached to one of them. Its pretty easy to remove it, but not as easy as not removing it.

My summary

View attachment 156406

• Setup 1 is a good first option to get started with MFT as its accurate and simple, HOWEVER make sure you get rail clips (or make them) and also make sure you don't need to cut anything wider than 550mm, or this won't work for you.
• Setup 3 is a bit of a dream setup, except its not portable, it can't handle full sheets and the hinges are expensive. If you make the millard ply hinge and add it to a standard 718mm MFT it would solve most of those issues - with the exception that for full sheet breakdowns you need to measure and mark as per normal track saw setup.
• Setup 4 is a brilliant option if you want portability and regularly cut large sheets and / or dont need to worry about mm accuracy. Adding a repeat stop to this setup gives a really slick setup - fast and pretty accurate. Also note that 0.6mm over a 640mm cross cut is probably sufficient for vast majority of tasks including cabinet making
• Setup 5 is the ultimate workshop setup, but too big for site work IMO.
• Setup 2 is a total oddball and I haven't figured it out yet.

Of course there are lots of other options that could perhaps take the best bits from each of these and hit the sweet spot for each individual user. For example maybe setup one but with a 800mm deep MFT top (instead of 718mm) would give a fully accurate 630mm crosscut capacity, without the need for an expensive hinge. Throw in some £15 rail clips and you have a fully functional MFT setup that will handle most tasks - it would also be inexpensive and could be the perfect entry model.

Anyway, I will leave it there for now I am very interested to hear about any other setups I have missed, or more importantly for any corrections with what I have said.

Martin

I have just finished making option 3 but other than testing for square haven’t had the time to make anything yet. Now dismantling everything in garage to insulate and ply line before putting it back together.

Will report back in a couple of months.

Thanks for all the hard work in putting this together @Molynoox

 

[Nelsun]

Wow, that's some write-up of possible configurations! I'll confess to skimming a good whack of it as I have myself covered.

There's one that I don't think is in there though: rail square mounted on MFT hinge with optional side stop. That's how my proper MFT rolls these days. The main benefit is that it takes the faff out of aligning a hinged rail to the dog holes as the rail and fence are one piece.
This only comes in to play once you've broken a sheet down and, with a side stop fitted, you're limited by the length of the piece the stop runs on; so it's not perfect by any means.