MFT and Rail Square - my thoughts

[Molynoox]

@Molynoox What do you mean by 'rail clips' please? Link?

It's the ones that spectric linked below, the orange UJK ones.
You certainly don't NEED them but having spent some time with the MFT I can now totally see why people have them.

 

[Verywetsnow]

Thanks Martin for a good write up and follow on discussions

 

[Nelsun]

You wouldn't do it with a hand saw. Rough cut maybe and then a plane.
But with a tracksaw you don't really need an MFT in the first place.
With a hand circular saw you don't even need a track - a length of MFC shelf and a couple of clamps will do, or just the fence alone.

More power to your elbow, Jacob. However, I think a track saw would soon pay for itself with not having to do that every darned time.

 

[Distinterior]

You wouldn't do it with a hand saw. Rough cut maybe and then a plane.
But with a tracksaw you don't really need an MFT in the first place.
With a hand circular saw you don't even need a track - a length of MFC shelf and a couple of clamps will do, or just the fence alone.

You're seriously suggesting that maybe, just maybe, cutting up all this is viable by means of a handsaw and then using a plane to clean up the edge....?

Incidentally,....Every one of those cuts was made with a tracksaw and MFT ....with a Torsion Box setup!......I'll call it what I like coz that's what they are known as.....

I suggest you stick to a subject that you know something about and let the rest of us more modern woodworkers just get on with what we know about.

 

[Jacob]

You're seriously suggesting that maybe, just maybe, cutting up all this is viable by means of a handsaw and then using a plane to clean up the edge....?

No of course not. Only if you had no alternative.

Incidentally,....Every one of those cuts was made with a tracksaw and MFT

Well done!

....with a Torsion Box setup!......I'll call it what I like coz that's what they are known as.....

As long as you don't get confused and think there is some magic torsion issue being resolved!

I suggest you stick to a subject that you know something about and let the rest of us more modern woodworkers just get on with what we know about.

I've been doing proper joinery most of my life - only dabbled with MDF on occasions. I'd cut it on my TS with sliding table.

 

[Spectric]

You're seriously suggesting that maybe, just maybe, cutting up all this is viable by means of a handsaw and then using a plane to clean up the edge..

This maybe stating the obvious but once upon a time people did use handsaws and router planes because they had no alternative.

 

[baldkev]

I still don't see the point. A huge amount of effort and expense to solve a non existent problem. Yes and it is just a box, torsion doesn't come into it!

ive only recently caved in and got a tracksaw. I resisted for years because my 18v circular saws are just so good...... and ive got a clean new looking one and a site basher....
Anyway, i got a tracksaw. Nearly bought the mafell, but lots of reviews stated that the makita is nearly as good, but way cheaper, so i decided id get the makita and if its THAT good, the mafell can be my good one and the makita can be the new site basher.

They ARE that good. Just fast and accurate, thats it. I can still cope with my 18v and a straight edge, or if ive got a number of precision cuts to do, the tracksaw is without doubt the tool for the job. The top edge is fantastic dure to the splinter guard ( and its a new blade )
It will pay for itself. Im actually kicking myself for not getting one sooner, but hey, you live and learn.....

So the mft? Well with the tracksaw and my domino, the quicker and more accurately I can make stuff, the better, so rather than coping as i normally do, i'm being proactive and building a quick table to speed the tracksaw work further. Even the domino benefits as it'll be fast to do repetitive work on the table with stops, tracks and clamps etc. I probably won't buy squares and parallel guides for a while, just see how i get on

Edit to add: once upon a time, this was my quickest way to rip sheets down parallel, its got a 650mm width when clamped into the fence positions on a circ saw

 

[Distinterior]

This maybe stating the obvious but once upon a time people did use handsaws and router planes because they had no alternative.

Indeed they did Spectric,.....but that was before more modern materials & tools were available.

Obviously, I'm not suggesting that a handsaw & hand plane are no good for older more traditional materials, but to suggest to attempt that you can cut a clean edge with these two tools on a pre finished man made board is a fallacy.

 

[baldkev]

This maybe stating the obvious but once upon a time people did use handsaws and router planes because they had no alternative.

I used to cut masons mitres in worktops by hand.... the guy i worked for didnt have a router so i learnt the old school way and i was very good at it.
But i have routers and jigs because its so much faster. I can still do it

 

[Molynoox]

ive only recently caved in and got a tracksaw. I resisted for years because my 18v circular saws are just so good...... and ive got a clean new looking one and a site basher....
Anyway, i got a tracksaw. Nearly bought the mafell, but lots of reviews stated that the makita is nearly as good, but way cheaper, so i decided id get the makita and if its THAT good, the mafell can be my good one and the makita can be the new site basher.

They ARE that good. Just fast and accurate, thats it. I can still cope with my 18v and a straight edge, or if ive got a number of precision cuts to do, the tracksaw is without doubt the tool for the job. The top edge is fantastic dure to the splinter guard ( and its a new blade )
It will pay for itself. Im actually kicking myself for not getting one sooner, but hey, you live and learn.....

So the mft? Well with the tracksaw and my domino, the quicker and more accurately I can make stuff, the better, so rather than coping as i normally do, i'm being proactive and building a quick table to speed the tracksaw work further. Even the domino benefits as it'll be fast to do repetitive work on the table with stops, tracks and clamps etc. I probably won't buy squares and parallel guides for a while, just see how i get on

Edit to add: once upon a time, this was my quickest way to rip sheets down parallel, its got a 650mm width when clamped into the fence positions on a circ saw

Hey Kev, interesting to hear your feedback on the MFT and good call not diving into getting extra kit before you know you need it.

I think with my experience I got lucky and bought almost exactly the right gear for what I wanted to achieve, and I'm now slowly figuring out what else I might benefit from in the future such as the hinge and strangely enough a smaller rail!

I'm interested; how do you cut down sheet goods without the rail square? Do you just mark the board up top and bottom then line up the rail manually? Nothing wrong with that of course, I'm just curious because I know you do this for a living and you have already mentioned your interest in efficiency.

By the way, loving that MASSIVE circ saw fence! Do you go large on everything?

 

[paulrbarnard]

You wouldn't do it with a hand saw. Rough cut maybe and then a plane.
But with a tracksaw you don't really need an MFT in the first place.
With a hand circular saw you don't even need a track - a length of MFC shelf and a couple of clamps will do, or just the fence alone.

It does depend a bit on what you are cutting. Melamine faced chipboard is a bugger without the chip control offered by a track saw. Sure you can beat it in other ways but they are all faff and extra effort. Also I’m not going to put one of my planes on to the edge of chipboard to create a flat edge for jointing.

 

[baldkev]

Hey Kev, interesting to hear your feedback on the MFT and good call not diving into getting extra kit before you know you need it.

I think with my experience I got lucky and bought almost exactly the right gear for what I wanted to achieve, and I'm now slowly figuring out what else I might benefit from in the future such as the hinge and strangely enough a smaller rail!

I'm interested; how do you cut down sheet goods without the rail square? Do you just mark the board up top and bottom then line up the rail manually? Nothing wrong with that of course, I'm just curious because I know you do this for a living and you have already mentioned your interest in efficiency.

By the way, loving that MASSIVE circ saw fence! Do you go large on everything?

I bought 3 x 1.5m tracks and a pair of joiners. You are supposed to use 2 pairs of joiners per joint. The 1.5m tracks were about 50 quid each so i thought 2 would make a 3m track for 2.4m rips and a 1.5m for the 1.2m cuts. So far ive used it as low down as 400mm but could use a shorter rail, so might buy another rail in the future. I was close to getting a 3m rail, but wanted to see how the jointed rails hold up because I'll have to transport it to jobs and 1.5m is much easier to keep safe than a 3m

Yes at the mo i just measure and mark, put track on the marks. Its already quicker than clamping on a rip of ply and slightly more accurate, but with the added bonus of splinter guard.

The fence was very useful ripping long lengths up to half sheet wide, but not perfect. The measuring to get the right width and a bit of flex in use was a pain, but it did its job ( mainly sheathing ply and mdf ) i made it from angle and some flat bar i got off a metalworker friend

 

[frankendoodle65]

I've been doing proper joinery most of my life - only dabbled with MDF on occasions. I'd cut it on my TS with sliding table.

Ah that's it, problem solved guys. No need for a tracksaw when you can manhandle a huge cast iron panel saw to every job with you.
Though that's my workshop rendered useless now, I could fit the saw but no room for infeed or outfeed of an 8x4 sheet!

 

[Jacob]

Ah that's it, problem solved guys. No need for a tracksaw when you can manhandle a huge cast iron panel saw to every job with you.
Though that's my workshop rendered useless now, I could fit the saw but no room for infeed or outfeed of an 8x4 sheet!

So you've got a bigger than 8x4' torsion box? I'm impressed!
What I do with big sheets is to reduce them over saw horses with a hand held circ saw, to handleable sizes according to the cutting list. Then over the TS. No problem.
PS tracksaw is a good idea of course but I don't do enough sheet stuff to make it worthwhile.

 

[frankendoodle65]

So you've got a bigger than 8x4' torsion box? I'm impressed!
What I do with big sheets is to reduce them over saw horses with a hand held circ saw, to handleable sizes according to the cutting list. Then over the TS. No problem.
PS tracksaw is a good idea of course but I don't do enough sheet stuff to make it worthwhile.

I use my tracksaw to cut down big sheets over saw horses, no need to cut the same piece of wood twice and waste more material and time.
The MFT is for smaller pieces, very handy for quick repetitive cuts. I also have a small table saw. Plenty of overlap in functionality, but I never need to tidy up a rough circular saw cut on the table saw, what a waste of time!

Edit to add:
It's the tracksaw, parallel guides and rail square that go out with me on a job, the tablesaw and mft live in the workshop.

 

[Nelsun]

So you've got a bigger than 8x4' torsion box? I'm impressed!
What I do with big sheets is to reduce them over saw horses with a hand held circ saw, to handleable sizes according to the cutting list. Then over the TS. No problem.
PS tracksaw is a good idea of course but I don't do enough sheet stuff to make it worthwhile.

Whoosh! Your PS is enough on the matter.

 

[gcusick]

It's the ones that spectric linked below, the orange UJK ones.
You certainly don't NEED them but having spent some time with the MFT I can now totally see why people have them.

Yes I do use these clips and benchdogs

https://www.axminstertools.com/ujk-technology-dog-rail-clip-pair-102973
If you use these parallel guides they are very precise once setup

https://benchdogs.co.uk/products/330mm-parallel-guide-system-festool-makita
or these

https://fctools.co.uk/product/parallel-guide/
And @Jacob does have a point, everything that we can do using the more expensive options of rail squares, hinged guides etc etc can be done with far cheaper options but maybe with a little more effort and more skill. I think the biggest benefit is that with a tracksaw and these accessories that anyone can cut a sheet into the required pieces but how many could do it with a handsaw !

I bought a pair of the UJK track clips a while back, but found them a bit of a pain to connect and disconnect to/from the dogs. On one of @petermillard ’s videos, he mentioned David Stanton’s rail clips. I’ve seen versions made from 6mm ply, and you can buy them from David’s etsy (Stanton Dog Locks Sold as a Pair - Etsy) store, but I made a 3D printed pair

They’re a mirror-image pair that slide in the rail’s t-track and secure the rail very well.

If anyone is interested, I’m happy to share the stl file.

 

[starfish]

I bought a pair of the UJK track clips a while back, but found them a bit of a pain to connect and disconnect to/from the dogs. On one of @petermillard ’s videos, he mentioned David Stanton’s rail clips. I’ve seen versions made from 6mm ply, and you can buy them from David’s etsy (Stanton Dog Locks Sold as a Pair - Etsy) store, but I made a 3D printed pair

View attachment 156065

View attachment 156064
They’re a mirror-image pair that slide in the rail’s t-track and secure the rail very well.

If anyone is interested, I’m happy to share the stl file.

yes please, could you share the stl file.

 

[Molynoox]

I bought a pair of the UJK track clips a while back, but found them a bit of a pain to connect and disconnect to/from the dogs. On one of @petermillard ’s videos, he mentioned David Stanton’s rail clips. I’ve seen versions made from 6mm ply, and you can buy them from David’s etsy (Stanton Dog Locks Sold as a Pair - Etsy) store, but I made a 3D printed pair

View attachment 156065

View attachment 156064
They’re a mirror-image pair that slide in the rail’s t-track and secure the rail very well.

If anyone is interested, I’m happy to share the stl file.

Nice going on the 3d print.
I don't have a 3d printer so will need to go the plywood route.
I feel like the Stanton ones look great but at £30 it just feels like too much, it's double the cost of the ujk ones.
I didn't realise the ujk ones were a bit faffy.
I think I might be more interested in the Millard ply hinge as an upgrade next as then I don't need the clips at all.

Martin

 

[gcusick]

Nice going on the 3d print.
I don't have a 3d printer so will need to go the plywood route.
I feel like the Stanton ones look great but at £30 it just feels like too much, it's double the cost of the ujk ones.
I didn't realise the ujk ones were a bit faffy.
I think I might be more interested in the Millard ply hinge as an upgrade next as then I don't need the clips at all.

Martin

Me too, but I’m a cheapskate with a 3D printer!