Merit's of second hand tools

[J4m3sg]

Hi guys,

This might be a bit of an inflamtory topic but as a complete novice I’m interested in the thoughts of the you guys as all of you are much more experienced than me.

Saws. As a novice I’ve been watching a lot of Paul Sellers you tube videos, I’ve bought an old second hand eBay saw, and a saw file to sharpen. I’ve also secured a setting tool to set the teeth properly (which I’ve not yet done). I like the fact that Paul advocates buying good quality old tools, where possible from local manufacturers and rather than disposable new ones.

I was using my eBay saw last night (admittedly without having set the teeth, but is has been sharpened) and struggled through a few cuts. Then I picked up a Spear and Jackson 15ppi saw I got from a fiver from B&Q and got faster straighter cuts immediately. My enjoyment of the task in hand immediately went up as I stopped thinking about what was wrong with the saw, and got on with making stuff.

I suppose my question (if I have one) is this. Is does my ebay saw need more fettling to bring it up to speed? Currently my cheap spear and Jackson wipes the floor with it, and as a beginner, this means I’m spending more of my time working with wood rather than fettling tools. Will my ebay saw be as good as my S&J when I learn better sharpening/setting tools? And is this idea of buying older tools and restoring them, no matter how much it appeals from a sustainability perspective) actually not as practical as buying newer in my my experience better tools?

Actually, that’s three questions but hopefully you get the point. Interested in the experiences of other on this…?

Jim

 

[custard]

Hard point disposable saws (like your B&Q jobby) are a brilliant invention! If you want to invest the time in learning to sharpen and set your traditional saws then that's fine, but don't imagine that it's something you'll pick up after a few minutes tinkering. I learnt as part of a traditional cabinet making apprenticeship. I can assure you it takes a fair bit of time and effort to get it right, and, like playing a musical instrument, unless you do it regularly you'll fall out of practise.

As a hobbyist you won't be sharpening saws all that much, you probably don't have a heap of free time available, and there's loads of other woodworking skills that you'd love to acquire; if that sounds like you then be realistic and stick to disposable (there's also inexpensive Japanese hard point disposable for dovetailing and fine work).

Good luck!

 

[DTR]

Many of us use and favour old second-hand tools over new ones. Saw sharpening, like any other skill, will take a little practice to get right. Stick at it!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It is possible of course that the tooth pattern on the hardpoint was more suitable for the job in hand, as well.

 

[AndyT]

I agree with Custard. Hardpoint saws can be amazingly good for providing sharp accurate teeth for less than the cost of a saw file.
But their handles are not as nice to use as old wooden saws so if you find an old saw that you want to use you will need to learn to sharpen it. I have had my best results after watching what Paul Sellers did sharpening rip teeth on a tenon saw. It cross cuts very well.

 

[Benchwayze]

I agree with Custard.

As an addition, I made the mistake as a novice, of putting off sharpening saws. So, there came a day when I had four or five excellent Spear & Jackson brass-back saws, all of them blunt and virtually useless. One doesn't throw away tools like that, so I had to learn to sharpen them. I still can't claim to be good at saw sharpening, but at least the saws now cut tolerably well.
Yes, I have one hardpoint panel saw, even thugh panel saws are easier to sharpen; I can see better, what I am doing! :mrgreen:

John

 

[custard]

I have had my best results after watching what Paul Sellers did sharpening rip teeth on a tenon saw. It cross cuts very well.

Interesting. Where I trained you were taught the traditional range of saw sharpening techniques, but what they actually recommended was a kind of adapted rip cut for almost everything. It's like a rip sharpen but with a bit of fleam, actually if you're doing the job completely by eye it's difficult not to introduce a bit of fleam!

That seemed to me a practical solution for most people. Sure, I once knew of an old boy who managed the timber sheds for a pre-electrification workshop, he had about twenty or thirty different large saws, all with slightly different teeth and sharpening arrangements. Entirely appropriate if you're bent over a saw horse all day long, but for the rest of us something simpler is more relevant.

And for the beginning woodworker you don't get simpler than a hard point disposable!

 

[BearTricks]

You could have just bought a second hand saw that wasn't actually very good in the first place. I bought an old 'Number 4' plane on ebay that doesn't have a specified brand. It didn't cost a lot but it's a complete piece of garbage despite being at least sixty years old and having fettled it to where it should be at least usable.

 

[Droogs]

For me and my lifestyle, being "eco-friendly" is a major factor (I know I'm a tree hugging luberjack at heart). I therefore tend to where ever possible procure second hand tools. But at the same time, when I startedg out it was more important to learn wood work skills after all I wasn't trying to become a toolmaker. there is nothing wrong with buying and using modern tools, especially if they make it easier for you to learn the basics which will then give you the impetous to learn even more skills and perhaps instill a desire to learn tool maintenance and restoration techniques. If this is the case with yourself, then by all means grab hold of old tools when you see a bargain but continue to learn with the new. By the time you are ready to try and restore and then use your old tools you will have aquired the knowledge and skills needed to know when you are getting the refurbishment right and when you are not and will have a ready supply of worn salvageable new tools to use to create other tools, such as using the blade from a defunct hardpoint saw to make your "new" card scrapers or even a scraper plane or anything else you can come up with.

Dont wory about what you do it with the first thing in anything is to learn how to do it.

 

[finish_that]

Really honest opinion here and worth a read

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/the-hardpoint-saw/

 

[Fat ferret]

Your in at the deep end mate trying to sharpen a tenon saw as its probably 12-15 tpi. I only use resharpenable saws and am proficient at keeping them sharp. The other day I tried to bring back an old 13tpi tenon saw and struggled to get it useable as the teeth were badly bluntened and someone had tried to sharpen it before. If your saw isn't too badly mangled you may make it cut but not easy on a tenon saw.

I have spear and Jackson resharpenables and they are good. If their last sharpening was done well and they haven't been badly bluntened or they are new you can just touch them up with a few passes for each gullet following the angles there already. But bringing saws with more than 10 tpi back from the abyss is hard and time consuming. I would only buy new saws or saws with good teeth after my experience with that old tenon saw.

However the advantages of resharpenables are many. Once you get a collection of decent saws you can sharpen you will be have tools to last a life time. I have.

Why don't you buy a new spear and Jackson 24" 7tpi cross cut and use that and practice sharpening on it and progress to sharpening tenon saws once you have got the hang of sharpening the crosscut? In the mean time use your hard point and go do some woodwork!

 

[matthewwh]

If you're happy with the hard point and it's doing the job, stick with it. There's a lot of technique involved in sawing well and developing that is probably a better use of your time.

On older saws the thin steel can often have deteriorated and become embrittled to the point where the teeth fall off if you try to set them, so if you are going to restore a saw as a user, look for a young one, work on the teeth first and then try using the saw before you invest any time in the rest of it.

A good quality new saw is a wonderful thing, leagues apart from a hardpoint in terms of speed and smoothness and the time invested in learning to set and sharpen it will be well spent. If however, your first objective is to cut wood accurately, then I would suggest that you will acquire those skills faster with a new disposable saw than you would trying to renovate an old one.

 

[J4m3sg]

Thanks for your replies everyone, interesting thoughts, and they make a lot of sense.

Custard, you mentioned “inexpensive Japanese hard point disposable for dovetailing and fine work” – are there any you’d care to recommend as that’s likely to be the next purchase? Or if anyone else have any recommendations I’d be interested to hear them

Jim