Mentor Wanted

[NorthernSteve]

I’ve read most of the posts to this thread and the previous . The 1st request I thought as I have no formal training in woodworking of any type there is not much I can add or contribute to assist the op . But some of the advice says to practice, make mistakes, give it a go etc which reminded me ( that’s how I started ) there was no internet, no guru’s as such , no smart phones so you spoke with tradesman and if you were lucky you’d watch them work and learn from them . When young 14 + I’d work with builders for a few pounds, sometimes for nothing and my friends would laugh and jeer that I was being ripped off or conned but I learnt so much from these tradesmen the knowledge they passed on was priceless. Those mates who jeered now often call on me for repairs and improvements to their homes . Now I’m not a know it all but I can hold my own with small building projects and landscape gardening and plumbing and heating and gas installations obviously and then the basic electrical work, painting and decorating ,wood and some metal work so I often wonder if I’d trained in say cabinetry and joinery only how good would I be . But I’d rather be able to do lots of jobs really well and to a high standard than to only have a single skill ..so as above jyst jump in . I can’t agree more with learning by your mistakes and especially incorporating those mistakes into your work so they are no longer visible mistakes unless they are pointed out.. and also as above don’t make any mistakes with your digits …

I think my approach to woodworking has a lot to do with my personality. Always want to achieve more, don't want to accept imperfection, seeking high standards. All of which are double edged. I recall a conversation with some very capable furniture restorers, they never worked on pieces they intended to keep in their own homes, instead each would do the work for the other. Why, because they never managed a 'perfect' job, and that imperfection, how ever tiny, would always draw the eye. And these were guy commissioned by Bonhams, Southby's and the likes.

 

[NorthernSteve]

There are many approaches to box making, but to simplify it down for me there are two. Machine and pure hand made. If you’re looking to make a living at it, a mechanised approach is needed, if it’s just for the love of woodworking pure hand made is wounderful. The former needs investment in machines and learning how to use them which is fairly quick. The latter requires gaining the hours of experience to make something well. Which approach are you looking to take?

Another good question, I don't want to spoil the hobby by allowing commercial considerations to dictate what I do. At the same time, I aim to make my hobby cost neutral in terms of offsetting equipment costs through things I sell, over time. This allows me to subjectively rationalise spending on kit. I have invested in the main machines, but would like to add a lathe and a drum sander at some point.

 

[macetownhouse]

Hello all, in my humble opinion utube is a huge source of knowledge, now I know that there is a awful lot of rubbish and product flogging, but pick your sources, the other sites mentioned above, some I use others Stumpy Nubs, 10 Minutes Workshop are some of the best.
In Ireland I find that tool selection is somewhat limited and with Brexit most UK site are out.
What I find I need the most is tool advice, which I get here, (sometimes the trend goes down a rabbit hole..), but mostly informative.

Start with cheaper construction grade timber and just start, the best education is yourself by your mistakes, I have and will continue too.

Finally there is more bad advice out there than good, I was told as a young lad, probably including mine.

Just go cut!!!

 

[stuckinthemud]

This is a fascinating thread. I am self taught in woodcarving - I took most of my knowledge from magazines and books (it was pre-internet). No local knowledge was available to me. I am absolutely certain I would have learned more and more quickly had I been able to access face to face instruction. In time I became an adult education instructor and my students were able to learn more in weeks than I did in years- usually learning more from fellow students than the instructor. I learned more in my chosen craft by teaching than I ever did while I was “learning”. I consider myself a well rounded intermediate carver. The best way for me to advance will be to attend an advanced course, a year or two under professional tutelage will save me a decade of trying to find out what it is I don’t know. Skill based learning is done via apprenticeship for a reason. My advice? Go on as many courses as you can, boxes are joinery, go on joinery courses, boxes are furniture go on furniture making courses. Meet people, swap knowledge, get inspiration, get motivation. You will learn more and more quickly and work to a higher standard than you ever will being self-taught.

 

[HOJ]

As in the music analogy, you need a huge amount of input time to get to a good level of proficiency, I seem to recall, from past forum threads, IIRC, with people like @custard and others, discussing this as a number, gets into + 10,000 hours, and that is with tutelage.

My plan as I approach retirement is to up my game, with the scaling down of my joinery activities, to go on to make smaller items such as "jewellery boxes", which I've no doubt will be a complete waste of time, for several reasons, I've never made or sold anything speculatively, and that there are far greater skilled people than I already in that market, so i may just end making rabbit hutches and bird boxes, nice ones though.

and a drum sander at some point

On my list at this time as well, been putting it off for years, I have some quite complex curved lamination projects in my back catalogue to make, that I WILL need one for, (looking at the Laguna)

Start with cheaper construction grade timber and just start

I'm not an advocate of that idea, using poor quality materials will lead to frustration and a rapid loss of interest.

And whilst not deriding Men's sheds, they do have people with diverse skills and capabilities, but in my experience,"fine" woodworking isn't really one of them, and I include myself in that.

Further to the "mentoring" part, I have been doing some this week, with a retired lady/widow, who has the desire (read defiance) to be self reliant, but got into a bit of a muddle.

She had bought herself some basic hand tools, hand saw, drivers, hammer etc and mixed boxes of screws and nails, to do some work to an old shed's panels (P.A.T), I had some excess shiplap cladding left over from a job a couple of year's ago, and between all of us, she has more than exceeded her expectations, the pleasure I derive from helping is simply the big Thank you at the end, consequently her determination, now, is to do even more, with the confidence that she derived from the experience (with a little future help and guidance, I might add)

 

[Jacob]

.......use a knife and a story stick and transfer from the stock. ......

Use a pencil and transfer marks to the rod from your design drawings, then mark directly from the rod to the stock, with pencil and a set square, as necessary.
Knife lines are only for those few cuts which need a perfect sharp edge and not for general marking.

 

[hennebury]

Not me, that is the great Alex Honnold, We can learn a lot from Alex. Don't accept the "no one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes" mindset guide you. People don't make mistakes all the time, perfection is obtainable, but you have to believe that it is and reach for it. Good luck.

Exclusive: Alex Honnold Completes the Most Dangerous Free-Solo Ascent Ever​

The climber is the first person to reach the top of Yosemite’s 3,000-foot El Capitan wall without ropes.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...Rock climber Alex Honnold became the first

 

[hennebury]

Use a pencil and transfer marks to the rod from your design drawings, then mark directly from the rod to the stock, with pencil and a set square, as necessary.
Knife lines are only for those few cuts which need a perfect sharp edge and not for general marking.

We obviously have a different point view on this.

I don't transfer anything from drawings, don't measure anything and don't use a pencil for marking. Everything is transferred from the stock using a square and a marking knife, and as such is as accurate as I can achieve, I don't know or care what that actual size of the stock is in terms of an actual measurement. If i dress the stock to an ideal of 1.500" do i care if it is 1.495" as long as all parts are the same, all spacing is identical and the overall furniture is to the endlines on the story stick, everything will fit together without any problem, and I get rid of accumulated errors on complex parts.

So if i can have that kind of accuracy and precision, and make my work so much easier, why would I not do it.
Why choose to add multiple margins of error from measuring and marking with tape measures and pencils, I just don't get it.

That's why i said that getting a mentor may be a big hindrance to your progress.

My advice; Don't take any advice, experiment, observe, learn and make your own way.

 

[Bingy man]

We obviously have a different point view on this.

I don't transfer anything from drawings, don't measure anything and don't use a pencil for marking. Everything is transferred from the stock using a square and a marking knife, and as such is as accurate as I can achieve, I don't know or care what that actual size of the stock is in terms of an actual measurement. If i dress the stock to an ideal of 1.500" do i care if it is 1.495" as long as all parts are the same, all spacing is identical and the overall furniture is to the endlines on the story stick, everything will fit together without any problem, and I get rid of accumulated errors on complex parts.

So if i can have that kind of accuracy and precision, and make my work so much easier, why would I not do it.
Why choose to add multiple margins of error from measuring and marking with tape measures and pencils, I just don't get it.

That's why i said that getting a mentor may be a big hindrance to your progress.

My advice; Don't take any advice, experiment, observe, learn and make your own way.
View attachment 187682View attachment 187683View attachment 187684View attachment 187685View attachment 187686View attachment 187687View attachment 187688View attachment 187689View attachment 187690

Seriously good quality work there @hennebury - amazing work..

 

[Bingy man]

I think my approach to woodworking has a lot to do with my personality. Always want to achieve more, don't want to accept imperfection, seeking high standards. All of which are double edged. I recall a conversation with some very capable furniture restorers, they never worked on pieces they intended to keep in their own homes, instead each would do the work for the other. Why, because they never managed a 'perfect' job, and that imperfection, how ever tiny, would always draw the eye. And these were guy commissioned by Bonhams, Southby's and the likes.

I have a similar personality in that I can only accept perfection but in reality I may get 97/98 % but it’s that drive for perfection that keeps you always trying harder and harder. The mistake (s) you make this time around you will not make the next . Next project you might make a different mistake and so on . Eventually you get to a point where you can work skilfully and confidently and avoid all of the previous mistakes and produce the quality of work you are striving for . I’m not and probably never will be a fine furniture maker for eg but that ok that’s not what I want but if I decide to make an oak cabinet or a dining table then I’d want it to look perfect, in proportion, and well made . You should not be beating yourself up over getting your project 100 % perfect at this point in your woodworking journey but you most definitely should be enjoying it and remember it’s those little mistakes that teach us the most as they stick with us as we don’t want to repeat them. If you do keep making the same mistakes over and over then you are not learning to identify where you are going wrong and to correct your technique..this is my opinion as all my woodworking skills are self taught..

 

[hennebury]

Two types of people. Those who sharpen their tools when they are dull, and those who sharpen them when they know they can be sharper.
Where you get to is determined by what type you are. There is no right or wrong, people are free to work anyway they want.

Are you this type?

Or this type?

 

[stuckinthemud]

Your work is perfect and beautiful, but this is where you may accidentally illustrate a point the other way. I often state I am not a joiner and I don’t use power tools. I drive myself to be perfect within my own craft but have no idea what is wrong, or right, in those pictures, I don’t know which is the better piece. The edges are beautifully cut and squared, the loose tenon is flawless and grain matched (why? Wouldn’t a soft wood tenon expand in the mortise and be more secure, or is it not going to be hidden?) but, I guess the issue with the other image is the grain doesn’t match? You see, the joinery in the second image is still almost perfect, isn’t it? Look, I’m having to guess what the issues are, this is not my trade. A brief explanation, even a note or label would teach me a valued lesson - a little mentoring goes a long way.

 

[hennebury]

Your work is perfect and beautiful, but this is where you may accidentally illustrate a point the other way. I often state I am not a joiner and I don’t use power tools. I drive myself to be perfect within my own craft but have no idea what is wrong, or right, in those pictures, I don’t know which is the better piece. The edges are beautifully cut and squared, the loose tenon is flawless and grain matched (why? Wouldn’t a soft wood tenon expand in the mortise and be more secure, or is it not going to be hidden?) but, I guess the issue with the other image is the grain doesn’t match? You see, the joinery in the second image is still almost perfect, isn’t it? Look, I’m having to guess what the issues are, this is not my trade. A brief explanation, even a note or label would teach me a valued lesson - a little mentoring goes a long way.

There is nothing wrong or right in the photos.

The photos of the mortise and tenons are not about the joints but are representative of the two philosophical approaches to the work.

The loose tenon is fitted in a mortise that has a gap on either end to allows wiggle room to move the wood to line it up in the correct position.
If the mortises were cut to fit snug to the tenon they would have to be in precisely the right place, or things would not fit.
So the making mortises with gaps means that you have accepted the probability of inaccuracy in marking and cutting your joints and have designed your work to accommodate and conceal the errors.
Attempting precision marking and cutting tight fitting joints with no margin of error you run the risk of any mistake ruining the work. If you cut everything to fit tight, there is no wiggle room, it must fit. Tight joinery is the work of risk and commitment, and is unforgiving.

Two different approaches to working, one where you design to allow wiggle room to adjust parts, the other where you make part to fit precisely with no wiggle room. No one will see any difference in the finish piece, and probably for all intents and purposes there wont be any difference, it is just about following your heart and working the way you think is right.

This why I placed the photo of Alex Honnold on the rock face, he has no back-up plan, no safety, no margin of error, he has committed to absolute. Failure for Alex means death. That mindset and commitment can be applied to woodworking, lets face it failure for us is not quite as drastic.


There is no right or wrong way, but the more complex the project is the more benefit you will find in adopting precision making and cutting joints.

 

[stuckinthemud]

Thank you, now I understand. I guess I’m with Alex.

 

[johnnyb]

But it's impossible to tell if those joints from henneburys are made in exactly the same fashion as the wiggle room is hidden...
One huge advantage for a floating tenon I think "hidden" wiggle room!

 

[NorthernSteve]

My advice; Don't take any advice, experiment, observe, learn and make your own way.

Hennebury thanks for your response, but I am mentally wrestling with: "My advice; Don't take any advice" . I think my standard position however is listen, question and decide, rather than blindly accepting. Last year, I joined an introductory college evening woodwork course. I made the below shoeshine box, lots of mistakes along the way taught me far more than the tutoring did. The scroll sawed applique in the lid took some time.

 

[hennebury]

The advice bit is just about remaining skeptical and checking and confirming.
Nice attempt on the box, nice job on the applique on the lid. The tearout is pretty bad and the reason that I stress learning the basics of wood structure and cutting tools first. The box is overall a good job.

 

[johnnyb]

That's an amazing box btw. It's just the sort of thing I love tbh. I don't usually go anywhere near as fancy myself. I love to make useful things and my favourite thing is the thought that's been given to where every item goes. I get you were toying with campaign furniture style. The applique is really intricate what is it made from btw

 

[HOJ]

One things for sure, @NorthernSteve you don't need any help from me

 

[Bingy man]

Hennebury thanks for your response, but I am mentally wrestling with: "My advice; Don't take any advice" . I think my standard position however is listen, question and decide, rather than blindly accepting. Last year, I joined an introductory college evening woodwork course. I made the below shoeshine box, lots of mistakes along the way taught me far more than the tutoring did. The scroll sawed applique in the lid took some time.

View attachment 187769

View attachment 187770


View attachment 187771




View attachment 187768

Gorgeous and I’ll repeat - you don’t need to beat yourself up for any mistakes you make along the way, we all make them but it’s what we learn from our mistakes that make us better and more successful in the long run.