MDF as a sharpening/honing substrate?

[Eshmiel]

Eshmiel your avatar picture looks like Spock after his ears were sharpened past being useful. The hearing angle vs honing angle being all wrong.

Pete

I am looking very intently at a Jacob post, seeking the hidden wisdom therein. Staring at it intently eventually forces the useful notion out, rather like the tongue of a shed thief as one strangles one's purloined Festool back off them.

 

[Eshmiel]

Is this a medical diagnosis, or just self deprecation? Doesn't most woodwork need steady movements all the time, especially carving?

I thought multi facets were a feature of modern sharpening; primary, secondary, micro, back etc?

I am generally steady in the movements unless my motor nerve is jangled by a novel procedure, especially when someone insists that "anyone can do it easily".

You seem to have a cloudy understanding of the multi-bevel sharpening nomenclature. I feel that you would benefit greatly from a more thorough reading of Brent Beach, who names all 9 of the bevels needed for a truly sharp blade (and hints at another 3). Each has a name and a procedure for bringing it into existence. Once one has mastered the theory, a bit of practice* can see a smoothing plane blade brought into true sharpness in only 57 minutes, significantly less than the 131 taken by a novice at the techniques.

* This does require several jigs and gubbins, which can be found for less than £250 if one searches diligently.

 

[Jacob]

....

You seem to have a cloudy understanding of the multi-bevel sharpening nomenclature.

Yes and I intend to stay that way.

I feel that you would benefit greatly from a more thorough reading of Brent Beach, who names all 9 of the bevels needed for a truly sharp blade (and hints at another 3). Each has a name and a procedure for bringing it into existence. Once one has mastered the theory, a bit of practice* can see a smoothing plane blade brought into true sharpness in only 57 minutes, significantly less than the 131 taken by a novice at the techniques.

You are joking aren't you? You never know these days!

* This does require several jigs and gubbins, which can be found for less than £250 if one searches diligently.

Ditto!

 

[JSW]

Yes and I intend to stay that way.

You are joking aren't you? You never know these days!

Ditto!

Apparently not a joke at all, can't wait to hear your feedback when you finish perusing his website!

 

[Jacob]

Apparently not a joke at all, can't wait to hear your feedback when you finish perusing his website!

There's a lot of it about, he's not the only one by any means! I think of it as fantasy woodworking and basically complete nonsense.
It's odd though, I can't think of another topic which sends people off the rails in a similar way - maybe health issues, homeopathy and the world of nutcase remedies? Antivac perhaps?
Mind you he's obviously having fun churning this stuff out!

 

[Eshmiel]

There's a lot of it about, he's not the only one by any means! I think of it as fantasy woodworking and basically complete nonsense.
It's odd though, I can't think of another topic which sends people off the rails in a similar way - maybe health issues, homeopathy and the world of nutcase remedies? Antivac perhaps?
Mind you he's obviously having fun churning this stuff out!

Ole Brent's fun is had and gorn, as he is now dead and returned to ashes & dust.

The obit mentions, " Brent died suddenly on November 29 while doing what he loved most - hiking at Shawnigan Lake. Happy, curious, devoted, well-read, well-travelled, and completely without pretension, he lived every day to its fullest."

"Without pretension". Personally I think that's true enough, despite Jacob's full-cynic dismissal of the fine Beach investigations and procedures for making edges not just sharp but bevelled to perfekshun. Yes, there is a bit of perfectionism going on in that procedure, which most of us are best to avoid as its no easy matter to be perfek. I should know, as I've been trying for ages but ..... still insufficient, inadequate and amiss. "Eshmiel tries hard but has a lot to learn and seems to require a great deal of time to do it" (Miss Biggs, schoolmistress, 1957).

 

[Jacob]

Ole Brent's fun is had and gorn, as he is now dead and returned to ashes & dust.

The obit mentions, " Brent died suddenly on November 29 while doing what he loved most - hiking at Shawnigan Lake. Happy, curious, devoted, well-read, well-travelled, and completely without pretension, he lived every day to its fullest."

"Without pretension". Personally I think that's true enough, despite Jacob's full-cynic dismissal of the fine Beach investigations and procedures for making edges not just sharp but bevelled to perfekshun. Yes, there is a bit of perfectionism going on in that procedure, which most of us are best to avoid as its no easy matter to be perfek. I should know, as I've been trying for ages but ..... still insufficient, inadequate and amiss. "Eshmiel tries hard but has a lot to learn and seems to require a great deal of time to do it" (Miss Biggs, schoolmistress, 1957).

But if you were to follow his crazy instruction and maintain his "perfection" firstly it'd take an age and secondly you'd have to do it all over again after a few minutes use.
Bevelomania!
If you want a lot of bevels they don't need to be facetted - most of mine are slightly rounded, which means and infinite number of bevels of infinitely small size. More bevels than you could shake a stick at!
Hope that helps.

 

[JSW]

"Without pretension". Personally I think that's true enough, despite Jacob's full-cynic dismissal of the fine Beach investigations and procedures for making edges not just sharp but bevelled to perfekshun. Yes, there is a bit of perfectionism going on in that procedure, which most of us are best to avoid as its no easy matter to be perfek.

Did he actually have time left in the day to make anything after all those efforts? Beggar that for a game of soldiers, I'll stick to a quickie sharpen and crack on ta very much

 

[Katomi woodsmith]

Why not make a set, starting with oak or any other hard wood, I have some gritty something recovered from the sea. Hard as ‘ell and blunts HSS tools when I try and turn it

 

[Eshmiel]

But if you were to follow his crazy instruction and maintain his "perfection" firstly it'd take an age and secondly you'd have to do it all over again after a few minutes use.
Bevelomania!
If you want a lot of bevels they don't need to be facetted - most of mine are slightly rounded, which means and infinite number of bevels of infinitely small size. More bevels than you could shake a stick at!
Hope that helps.

There may be an error in your woodworking that I have spotted. I shake the bevelled tools at the sticks, not the sticks at the bevels. The bevels will take no notice and the stick may inadvertently catch you in the kneecap or ear as you shake it, see?

A long time ago, when first reading of the bevel-Brenting in Fine Woodworking magazine, I did have a go. It did take time. It did produce a very good edge - and one that seemed to last. Since then I've read other procedures concerning the wisdom of dealing with the other side of the main bevel via a "back bevel". The geometry is irrefutable, in that an edge wears on both sides, not just on the main bevel side, so .... unless any sharpening of the main bevel side takes off enough metal to also remove the wear bevel on the other side of the edge, it'll be difficult to get true-sharp.

These days I avoid tertiary bevels and the "whole Brent" but I do put a microbevel on both sides of the edge when it needs resharpening rather than just a hone to bring it back. Many use what's become known as "The Charlesworth Ruler Trick" to put a micro bevel on the back of a blade (primarily to avoid having to make blade backs ultra-flat everywhere) and this, if renewed each sharpen, can serve as a back bevel sufficient to remove that wear bevel. Personally I prefer a more definite back bevel so me ruler is a thicker one than Mr C's "thinnest possible".

Just to exasperate your multi-bevel goat some more, I'll mention that I also use the ruler trick on the big surface of scrapers to polish just a little bit adjacent to the corners before burnishing.

 

[Jacob]

....

A long time ago, when first reading of the bevel-Brenting in Fine Woodworking magazine, I did have a go. It did take time. It did produce a very good edge - and one that seemed to last.

If they are used, non of them last. There is no magic way to make an edge last longer, other than by touching it up, a little and often.

Since then I've read other procedures concerning the wisdom of dealing with the other side of the main bevel via a "back bevel".

When taking off the burr from the face it has always been normal to put a bit more pressure towards the edge, which over time gradually forms a barely detectable shallow bevel. Many old tools have this, if they haven't been attacked by a modern sharpening nut, wasting hours pointlessly flattening.

These days I avoid tertiary bevels

Glad to hear it! I also avoid secondary bevels.

and the "whole Brent" but I do put a microbevel on both sides of the edge when it needs resharpening rather than just a hone to bring it back. Many use what's become known as "The Charlesworth Ruler Trick" to put a micro bevel on the back of a blade (primarily to avoid having to make blade backs ultra-flat everywhere) and this, if renewed each sharpen, can serve as a back bevel sufficient to remove that wear bevel. Personally I prefer a more definite back bevel so me ruler is a thicker one than Mr C's "thinnest possible".

The so-called "ruler trick" is much easier to do without a ruler and is pretty much what I describe above. It's normal. It's what everybody used to do without giving it a thought. Mr C was also a dedicated "over thinker".
You could call it the "without a ruler trick".

Just to exasperate your multi-bevel goat some more, I'll mention that I also use the ruler trick on the big surface of scrapers to polish just a little bit adjacent to the corners before burnishing.

Pointless, but if it turns you on...

 

[Jacob]

Modern sharpening is an odd phenomenon.
It works like a baited trap;
1 Naturally, all beginners find sharpening difficult
2 The modern sharpeners tell them yes it really is difficult but they can help with various gadgets and procedures. They promise success and there is a remorseless logic about the bevels, the flattening, precision, diamonds, the shiny gadgets, the brass knobs, camellia oil, Japanese this that and the other... etc etc.
3 The beginner takes the bait and starts having a go with these techniques and bits of expensive kit
4 The beginner then finds, guess what, that sharpening really is difficult!!!! Just as they were told!
Not to mention, tedious, slow, expensive. Preferred solution then generally to buy another bit of kit, the Mk3 jig, expensive stone, Tormek, or whatever
5 By then it is too late, they are hooked, they've bought the kit, read the long brain washing texts, unlikely to step away and rejoin the real world.

 

[Eshmiel]

If they are used, non of them last. There is no magic way to make an edge last longer, other than by touching it up, a little and often.

Ah ha! An opportunity to mention "unicorn sharpening". Have you read of it in the forums and such? If not, you will surely enjoy doing so. It purports to create longer lasting edges and to make even inferior steels do so. We can all sell the Blue Spruces and buy those £1.99 a chisel-shaped things made ..... somewhere or other.

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/the-unicorn-sharpening-method/

https://inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheUnicornMethod.html

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?292336-Where-are-you-with-the-unicorn-sharpening-method

Strewth, all this reading about proper sharpening I pass your way! I expect that your order for a Veritas sharpening gubbin will be going in any day now.

 

[mark w]

Mr C was also a dedicated "over thinker".

Something you will never be accused of Jacob.

 

[Eshmiel]

Modern sharpening is an odd phenomenon.
It works like a baited trap;
1 Naturally, all beginners find sharpening difficult
2 The modern sharpeners tell them yes it really is difficult but they can help with various gadgets and procedures. They promise success and there is a remorseless logic about the bevels, the flattening, precision, diamonds, the shiny gadgets, the brass knobs, camellia oil, Japanese this that and the other... etc etc.
3 The beginner takes the bait and starts having a go with these techniques and bits of expensive kit
4 The beginner then finds, guess what, that sharpening really is difficult!!!! Just as they were told!
Not to mention, tedious, slow, expensive. Preferred solution then generally to buy another bit of kit, the Mk3 jig, expensive stone or whatever
5 By then it is too late, they are hooked, they've bought the kit, read the long brain washing texts, unlikely to step away and rejoin the real world.

"Long brainwashing texts" Mmmmmm - my favourites.

In 3/4 of a century I have read, listened to and seen enormous amounts of not just brainwashing text but similar stuff in all sorts of guises. School, mass media and the propaganda of all kinds of organisations, from church to the local barrow boy flogging rubbish. Some of the brainwashing memes are very long-lived and tenacious i' the culture. Often they promise total enlightenment via use of a very simple act. "Just believe". One may discover, though, that many things are not so simple as the priest suggests.

On the other hand, marketing priests (AKA advertising agencies) do tend to exude a vast efflorescence of detail based on their often simple (but false) premises. Whole bibles are writ about how to do straightforward things like .... sharpening.

How does a poor wee woodworker new to the shed discover a way to them true sharp edges? There seem to be many paths, each populated by sharpening sects and their rituals, spending as much time decrying the other paths and their sects as sharpening and using their tools. In the end, we adhere to one sharpening religion or another ..... as long as we end up with a sharp tool.

My grandfather had this problem with religion but seemed to solve it by trying every church, sect and ritual he could discover, over the years. He believed a particular dogma quite ardently for a while - until he tried the next one; and the next; and .....

Humans, eh!?

 

[Eshmiel]

Something you will never be accused of Jacob.

Anyone can fall into a thinking gulley. I have done it myself with many subjects. If we're fortunate, we can escape ... but often into a side gulley just as deep.

 

[Jacob]

Ah ha! An opportunity to mention "unicorn sharpening". Have you read of it in the forums and such?

Certainly have! The man himself chipped in often on this forum. Gone a bit quiet lately.

 

[JSW]

Anyone can fall into a thinking gulley.

Nope, not everyone.

I have done it myself with many subjects.

Knock yourself out.

If we're fortunate, we can escape ... but often into a side gulley just as deep.

[Yawn] Crack on then!

The rest of us will get busy actually making something, you should try it sometime.

 

[Eshmiel]

The rest of us will get busy actually making something, you should try it sometime.

Shall we have a "count wot I've made in how much time" contest? Of course, it would all be just metaphysical as this is cyberspace and anyone can claim anything.

But why not just take you anti-angst pill and go to the shed where you don't have to read one word of my prattle & twaddle?

 

[TheUnicorn]

Certainly have! The man himself chipped in often on this forum. Gone a bit quiet lately.

I like to think I'm sharp enough already.

I'm not. I just like to think it.