It has been a long time since I matched planed narrow boards. The boards were 10mm thick so I thought I would match plane each pair. Well one side of the join was perfect the other side was horrid, the reason, I used a plane with a cambered blade. For match planing the cutting edge must be straight not curved, I forgot.
Match planeing
- Thread starter newt
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David C
In Memorium
Newt,
You are quite right that cambered blade is not ideal for this thickness.
However I would have thought your poor side was more to do with clamping proceedure.
I would expect a slight kink accross the width, in the centre, but not a gap?
best wishes,
David
You are quite right that cambered blade is not ideal for this thickness.
However I would have thought your poor side was more to do with clamping proceedure.
I would expect a slight kink accross the width, in the centre, but not a gap?
best wishes,
David
David, yes clamping is an issue and clearly both boards have to be very tight. I would normally shoot boards of this thickness but in this case they were to long for my shooting board. I did finish up jointing each board individually, great practice on a 10mm board if a little frustrating. I only mentioned this as there has been much spoken recently regarding cambered blades.
regards.
regards.
David C
In Memorium
Newt,
Yes, degree of camber is highly variable, and can have interesting results.
I shoot ends and short joints with my usual camber, and see this as a huge advantage. The hollow in width is minute, barely 0.0002", as far as I can judge on 15mm stuff. Practically certain this "gap" gets closed by clamping pressure in medium hardwoods.
Shooting a veneer joint would present no problem, but match planing, (if that is indeed the term), of thicker stuff would be much better done with a straight blade.
Mind you, one must see a complete full width (i.e. two board) shaving if facets are to be avoided.
Freehand planing 10 mm edges IS very demanding......
best wishes,
David
Yes, degree of camber is highly variable, and can have interesting results.
I shoot ends and short joints with my usual camber, and see this as a huge advantage. The hollow in width is minute, barely 0.0002", as far as I can judge on 15mm stuff. Practically certain this "gap" gets closed by clamping pressure in medium hardwoods.
Shooting a veneer joint would present no problem, but match planing, (if that is indeed the term), of thicker stuff would be much better done with a straight blade.
Mind you, one must see a complete full width (i.e. two board) shaving if facets are to be avoided.
Freehand planing 10 mm edges IS very demanding......
best wishes,
David
David I assume its called match planing, 10mm is certainly demanding for me. Interestingly I was doing this work with Lemonwood, never used it before, however it has an interesting figure and quite hard.
Paul Sellers
Established Member
There are other considerations when edge-jointing the meeting edges of boards, which is what I assume you are meaning. Placing the two faces or back faces face to face when you plane the edges means that you don't have to think so much about planing square as the angle of one compensates for the angle of the other. That means that you can focus on planing straight only, which halves the problem.
Sometimes when I am planing individual boards true and want or need to plane each board individually, I clamp a piece of machined stock that has a square edge against the thinner board, almost but not quite flushing both edges with the board to be plane just a hair above the support board, this then give an increased width that supports the plane and sso tht it sits a little more squarely to the edge. I do not use a cambered blade for this as I prefer the full width of the edges to be fully connected during glue up.
I agree also that the clamping can cause many problems. Sometimes we forget that with the old animal hide glues, when you rub-jointed the joints, the advantage of this glue was that it had a tremendous pull that somehow even has the capacity to pull (once called snatch) the joints together without clamping pressure
Another thing is that most often we only create a camber on an iron for primary surface preparation and then follow up with smoothers.
Paul Sellers
Sometimes when I am planing individual boards true and want or need to plane each board individually, I clamp a piece of machined stock that has a square edge against the thinner board, almost but not quite flushing both edges with the board to be plane just a hair above the support board, this then give an increased width that supports the plane and sso tht it sits a little more squarely to the edge. I do not use a cambered blade for this as I prefer the full width of the edges to be fully connected during glue up.
I agree also that the clamping can cause many problems. Sometimes we forget that with the old animal hide glues, when you rub-jointed the joints, the advantage of this glue was that it had a tremendous pull that somehow even has the capacity to pull (once called snatch) the joints together without clamping pressure
Another thing is that most often we only create a camber on an iron for primary surface preparation and then follow up with smoothers.
Paul Sellers
Woody Alan
Established Member
It's an interesting idea that I have seen mentioned many times, but in practice have found that I have had to be as accurate with getting a 90 degree edge or the above premise doesn't work. I have found it much simpler and less stress to edge each board. When one board is as good as I can get it, I use it to reference progress on the second board allowing very fine swipes where required. To be honest I have more recently taken to the planer machine and only give a wipe of the length with the hand plane, and then fit.
Please note I am not disputing your statement only that it is not my experience/preference and as a beginner I found this approach much harder to master, odd as it's claimed to be easier
Alan
Paul Sellers
Established Member
I'm glad you posted because I know that many experience the same conflict. Let me take it a step more and see if I can shed some light simply because my ambition is that you would experience the pure joy of creating the perfect marriage every time. I am not saying that you or indeed anyone should abandon their machine jointer The machine is most useful for most work and is really very adequate, but there is almost nothing to compare with the exercise of hand jointing that final joint with a hand plane and any violin maker will tell you that he cannot accomplish with the machine what he can accomplish with the hand plane.
My steps are as follows: No matter which plane you choose, the sole must be flat. That is hollow-, crown- and twist-free otherwise the plane will create a perfect match in reverse to the sole of the plane. Therein lies the first problem--knowing if the plane sole is true. To find out, plane the edge of a board and check the end result by sighting down the length or indeed doing the same to another board and offering one edge to the other. Any discrepancy between the two, hollow or round, will be twice the inaccuracy of the plane's sole. If there is no gap then the sole will likely be true. There is an exception: It is easy to plane a board round even if the sole is flat because the plane will ride the crown and any pressure at the fore or latter part of the stroke will affect the cut of the plane. it's important to strive for an even pressure throughout the cut.
Another consideration is the sharpness of the iron, which must be surgically sharp without any negative rake to the bevel, no matter how small, that might cause the blade to ride the cut. Any micro bevel must be plane-cut at no more than say 30-degrees and care must be taken not to round over the cutting edge which can create a conflicting angle at the critical point of the cutting edge where the cutting edge meets the wood.
My third point is that the plane iron must be flat across the width and not crowned as for some planing needs. Though the corners can of course be rounded as is common practice on some planes such as smoothing planes.
The choice of planes is entirely yours, but I have used Clifton planes which are as perfectly flat as can be and also Veritas planes of which I particularly like their low angle bevel-up planes which have proven themselves time and time again in jointing procedures of this type.
I have a sharpening system that works great, is very fast and no machines needed. So if you have any needs there please let me know.[/i]
My steps are as follows: No matter which plane you choose, the sole must be flat. That is hollow-, crown- and twist-free otherwise the plane will create a perfect match in reverse to the sole of the plane. Therein lies the first problem--knowing if the plane sole is true. To find out, plane the edge of a board and check the end result by sighting down the length or indeed doing the same to another board and offering one edge to the other. Any discrepancy between the two, hollow or round, will be twice the inaccuracy of the plane's sole. If there is no gap then the sole will likely be true. There is an exception: It is easy to plane a board round even if the sole is flat because the plane will ride the crown and any pressure at the fore or latter part of the stroke will affect the cut of the plane. it's important to strive for an even pressure throughout the cut.
Another consideration is the sharpness of the iron, which must be surgically sharp without any negative rake to the bevel, no matter how small, that might cause the blade to ride the cut. Any micro bevel must be plane-cut at no more than say 30-degrees and care must be taken not to round over the cutting edge which can create a conflicting angle at the critical point of the cutting edge where the cutting edge meets the wood.
My third point is that the plane iron must be flat across the width and not crowned as for some planing needs. Though the corners can of course be rounded as is common practice on some planes such as smoothing planes.
The choice of planes is entirely yours, but I have used Clifton planes which are as perfectly flat as can be and also Veritas planes of which I particularly like their low angle bevel-up planes which have proven themselves time and time again in jointing procedures of this type.
I have a sharpening system that works great, is very fast and no machines needed. So if you have any needs there please let me know.[/i]
Woody Alan
Established Member
Paul
Thanks for the reply. I can assure you that my plane soles are flat including my Clifton 4 1/2 smoother that "I flattened" and Mick Hudson personally checked after I flattended it (it was toe and heel proud) and agreed it was indeed flat. I can't prove it wasn't... but there. I have a veritas BUS which I consider the pinnacle of fine smoothing, but prefer the LAJ for obvious reasons. I also have various other well known planes so I am not short in that area. I believe I can get a good edge ever since reading DC's book on sharpening I realised this is mostly technique and can acquire a fairly good edge with a double sided oilstone followed by I think it is an old black hard Arkansas. I have tried waterstones and just don't get it. I have diamond stones and believe they offer a good compromise, but I have experienced "grit pick up" and have now recently tried ceramics and I have to say they may well be my new toy. I have a set of rods for the kitchen and they are great but the bench stones were a pig to flatten. the polish that comes from using them is quite surprising, not much experience yet but like what I see so far. To be honest though I would recommend anyone new to this to use a cheap oilstone learn how to flat it and a honing stone (strop when learned how to sharp). I do not camber any of my blades only round corners of some, and do not believe in micro bevels (not because I don't think they work) I have no need of them.
Alan hic hic
Thanks for the reply. I can assure you that my plane soles are flat including my Clifton 4 1/2 smoother that "I flattened" and Mick Hudson personally checked after I flattended it (it was toe and heel proud) and agreed it was indeed flat. I can't prove it wasn't... but there. I have a veritas BUS which I consider the pinnacle of fine smoothing, but prefer the LAJ for obvious reasons. I also have various other well known planes so I am not short in that area. I believe I can get a good edge ever since reading DC's book on sharpening I realised this is mostly technique and can acquire a fairly good edge with a double sided oilstone followed by I think it is an old black hard Arkansas. I have tried waterstones and just don't get it. I have diamond stones and believe they offer a good compromise, but I have experienced "grit pick up" and have now recently tried ceramics and I have to say they may well be my new toy. I have a set of rods for the kitchen and they are great but the bench stones were a pig to flatten. the polish that comes from using them is quite surprising, not much experience yet but like what I see so far. To be honest though I would recommend anyone new to this to use a cheap oilstone learn how to flat it and a honing stone (strop when learned how to sharp). I do not camber any of my blades only round corners of some, and do not believe in micro bevels (not because I don't think they work
) I have no need of them.Another interesting remark and I can see how I should agree, perhaps it's just how I am doing it but if I apply what I believe to be even pressure the the two ends of the board will go awry. I have concluded that there must be a reason, and the only thing I can think of is that either I am not up to the task or it is to do with the fact that although a plane sole must be perfectly flat if it is taking a cut the wood behind the blade is always slightly higher than that in front of the blade. This is fine whilst the sole is fully in contact with the wood but when starting a pass the leading part of the sole is only in contact and at the end of a pass the reverse is true thus I believe although it's said the pressure is even, a skill is acquired where the subtlest of pressure change is used to get the end result....maybe ?
Alan hic hic
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Woody Alan":1nnceo8n said:perhaps it's just how I am doing it but if I apply what I believe to be even pressure the the two ends of the board will go awry. I have concluded that there must be a reason, and the only thing I can think of is that either I am not up to the task or it is to do with the fact that although a plane sole must be perfectly flat if it is taking a cut the wood behind the blade is always slightly higher than that in front of the blade. This is fine whilst the sole is fully in contact with the wood but when starting a pass the leading part of the sole is only in contact and at the end of a pass the reverse is true thus I believe although it's said the pressure is even, a skill is acquired where the subtlest of pressure change is used to get the end result....maybe ?
If you keep planing a board along its length, the ends will eventually become rounded, which is why you need to take what David Charlesworth calls 'stop shavings'. Probably the only way you could avoid a plane doing this is if the sole in front of and behind the blade were different levels, like an in-feed and out-feed table. But that's not practical, which is why you need to use stop shavings.
I can't understand why you have difficulty with match planing boards if your blade is straight. Provided you put the face sides together, the combined angles will always equal 180 degrees, even if the angle varies along the length of the board. I learnt to match plane boards at school back in the 1950s and still use the method - I find it foolproof. I think it would be worth while persevering with it.
Cheers :ho2
Paul
Woody Alan
Established Member
This is what I have difficulty with... it's another of those seemingly obvious statements that to me can't be further from the truth. If you are varying the angle along the length of the board how on earth do you know that the centre line is absolutlely true and level, unless your variations of angle are perfect about the centre? which makes a nonesense of it in my head anyway ? which it must be to make this mythical match, again I would rather take the time to edge one board perfectly ,or as near and the other to suit. I do believe that it is each individuals right ot make a decisions as long as they have all the facts to ignore
Alan two Laphroaigs too many
woodbloke
Established Member
Paul Chapman wrote:
I agree with Paul, and this is the way that I've always planed a pair of mating edges. Use a single very fine stop shaving to create a slight hollow as well on each board (still planed together) and the will go together perfectly. The technique is very simple and easy to master provided boards are a reasonable thickness...what is more difficult as David C has confirmed is to plane narrow stock to edge joint. For that I would use a shooting board - Rob :ho2
But as I said previously the cutting edge must be straight not cambered for match planing, but as Paul said the angle of the plane can be anything and they should join together perfectly, when you include the advice on stopped shavings. In fact I decided to plane the two 10 mm boards individually ( very challenging) because I could not be bothered to change the blade.
woodbloke
Established Member
Pete - am fit to burst, having just had Christmas lunch, still got pud to come tho'...and the Stilton, then the port and then a thimbleful of cognac :roll:....and then possibly some espresso coffee and mint sticks. You are probably right about the plane blade tho' but at this stage of the day....I ain't bovvered :lol:, you should note, have had a few g&t's before lunch - Rob
- RobDavid C
In Memorium
I believe thatb no plane on earth which will leave a straight edge after ten or fifteen through shavings.
The stop shaving (or hollowing technique) is essential, with no more than one or two through shavings afterwards.
Edge joints for hot hide glue, were planed straight but if clamps and modern glues are used slight hollow in the length is best practice.
The clamping of these joints, particularly in thin stuff is difficult to arrange.
If the line of force does not pass through the centre of the joint, (in its thickness) the boards will not be flat, or one side of the joint can be open.
I show some solutions to this problem in Book 2 page 81 to 86.
Best wishes,
David Charlesworth
The stop shaving (or hollowing technique) is essential, with no more than one or two through shavings afterwards.
Edge joints for hot hide glue, were planed straight but if clamps and modern glues are used slight hollow in the length is best practice.
The clamping of these joints, particularly in thin stuff is difficult to arrange.
If the line of force does not pass through the centre of the joint, (in its thickness) the boards will not be flat, or one side of the joint can be open.
I show some solutions to this problem in Book 2 page 81 to 86.
Best wishes,
David Charlesworth
