Marples Chisels question

[DigitalM]

Here are two Marples splitproof fully forged 1 1/2" chisels.

Does the difference in the blade mean these chisels have different purposes? Or is it simply that they're from different eras and the design changed?

I've been trying to complete a set of these and noticed a few differences in the blades. At first I thought that the narrower ones had the diverging bevel, but then I bought a set of four, which included a 1 1/2" that was already in my own set. It too had the diverging bevel rather than the parallel bevel.

 

[Droogs]

no pics

 

[DigitalM]

Sorry, it was late, and I was deeply pondering chisels!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You have PM.

 

[marcros]

i think that the bottom one in the first pic is a later design. I bought a set about 15-20 years ago and they were all like this.

 

[DigitalM]

20 years ago had they not already moved to the conical rather than narrow straight neck?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I suspect the parallel sides are easier and cheaper to machine, so newer.

 

[Jacob]

Makers are always changing things to a greater or lesser extent either to make them more cheaply or as marketing gimmicks - making extravagant and/or meaningless claims such as "split proof, fully forged" etc etc. I doubt their earlier models were prone to splitting and only partially forged.

 

[DigitalM]

I was asking about the difference in the bevels, not about design claims. However, I have the same problems with the term "waterproof" in regard to outdoor wear :lol:

 

[Jacob]

I was asking about the difference in the bevels, not about design claims. However, I have the same problems with the term "waterproof" in regard to outdoor wear :lol:

In theory there could be circumstances in which the different bevel design could make a very slight difference in use. Can't think how or where and I doubt it'd matter either way to millions of users.

"Waterproof" clothing is an interesting one. It's very easy to achieve but usually self defeating in that it almost always involves condensation on the inside.
I recently bought an expensive 'Paramo' jacket which claims to deal with both probs. Seems to work OK so far - is in fact the driest and most comfortable out door jacket I've ever had! But it's still fairly new.

 

[AndyT]

Marples production spanned so long a period, that it's really hard to be definite about designs and dates - there is just too much to sort out.

But I recently found a very comprehensive site from a collector who's having a good go at it, Roger P Ball. There's a lot on the site, so be patient as some pages are very large and slow to load. His page on Marples chisels is here:

http://www.williammarplesandsons.com/ch ... ouges.html

and you'll need to scroll down to see that chisels like yours were made from 1954 to 1998.

He notes some differences to the marks on the handles as well - do yours match?

From looking at what he has posted, and the way that the range reduced so sharply over the years, I reckon that the answer to your original question is that the difference you spotted was just a minor change over time and not intended to be an option in the range offered.

 

[DigitalM]

Hi Andy, thanks for this - the link is much appreciated.

Obviously this is not some burning question, just a little interest in a set I've been putting together. When I first started to complete the set, which was started by 4 chisels left to me by my Dad just before he passed on, I hadn't even noticed that some chisels have conical necks, so the first few I bought were all from the later era, whereas my old man's were all narrow necked.

Does it matter? Well it's nice but far from essential to have them all as similar as possible. It's become obvious in my short tenure here that many of us like tools for their history as much as their usefulness. Mine are hardly historic, but they used to belong to "The Captain", so, meh!

Call me what you like, I'm going to see if I can put a full set together and probably develope "shatterproof" or "Rhubarb and Custard" OCD in the process.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Marples splitproof chisels are still available new, though by the looks of it, blade design has changed again!

http://www.builderdepot.co.uk/marples-3 ... g-shopping

I'm 99% sure that even the first splitproof blades would have been made by drop forging, a process that needs a huge hammer in which the hot metal is shaped by being whacked hard between two dies, the bottom one fixed to the 'anvil', and the top one attached to the 'hammer', which is drawn up to a suitable height and then dropped. The 'hammer' can weigh several tons.

This process is pretty brutal to the dies, which wear out and require replacement after forming a few thousand workpieces. The Marples chisel blade dies will have been replaced many times between 1954 and today, so updates to blade shape to keep up with fashion would be easy to do.

 

[DigitalM]

Take everything that follows with a pinch of salt. I'm just reciting things I've read and I'm very happy for further info and clarification:

My understanding was that the earlier, narrow necked chisels were "fully forged". This implies that the later conical necked ones aren't. That would, in turn (if it's anything like knife making for example), mean that they are machine from blanks. While seemingly more wasteful of steel (which can likely be recycled anyway), I presume that it's less labour intensive than having to forge the shape first, then machine it anyway.

If any of this is incorrect, it simply shows how much disinformation is out there!

Anyway, if anyone knows any better, fire away, I'm all ears. I like chisels of all kinds - I'd like to see a thread where people show their faves and explain why, after all, this is probably one of the few places you could do such a thing and not be ridiculed!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

PM again.

 

[JohnPW]

If the neck (bolster) and blade is one piece of steel then more likely it's forged.

It's the boutique chisel makers who cut the blade out of sheet steel and then adds a separate bolster.

I've got a few of these chisels bought new (early 90s), I never use them because of the smelly handles!

 

[DigitalM]

Thx Phil (who is helping me with completing my set). I seem to get email notifications of PMs fine btw.

 

[DigitalM]

If the neck (bolster) and blade is one piece of steel then more likely it's forged.

It's the boutique chisel makers who cut the blade out of sheet steel and then adds a separate bolster.

I've got a few of these chisels bought new (early 90s), I never use them because of the smelly handles!

I had one that stank, the others seem OK unless you literally stick the bridge of your nose on them and inhale deeply, which I rarely do with anything!

 

[AndyT]

This is my understanding of what "forging" means in this context.

The earliest process just used a hammer and an anvil. At the Tools for Working Wood site there are some nice little videos from the Ashley Iles factory which show this. I can't work out how to do an easy link for these, but go to this page https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/sto ... 12.php?v=v choose the third video, "A visit to Ashley Iles pt 1, Forging" and advance to 31 seconds in. You can see how the bolster is formed by hammer work at the edge of the anvil. Later in the same video, at about 2' 34" in, there's the same process, but with a mechanical hammer (a "goff" hammer).

The process of drop forging needs less time, skill and energy, so when it came in, it soon displaced traditional forging (except for small scale specialists such as the Iles family.) In drop forging, a hot billet of metal is smashed between a pair of dies to make the shape, in one or two passes, then the surplus metal is trimmed away. This is clearly shown in a "How It's Made" video at the Buck Bros plant in the USA - this link should go to one minute in as the hot billet emerges to be placed between the dies - https://youtu.be/8fAIdYZYU20?t=60.

When did this change happen? I have a catalogue from an exhibition arranged by Ken Hawley in 1992. One of the exhibits listed was a Stanley 5001. The catalogue says that this was the first Sheffield chisel made by drop forging rather than hammer forging, in 1963.

According to Roger Ball, Marples started offering their "Splitproof" range of plastic handled chisels in 1954. We know that later examples would have been made by drop forging, but if the statement above, that Stanley were the first to use drop forging in 1963 is correct, it's possible that the early Splitproofs were forged in the old fashioned way.

Indeed, it seems that Marples seized on this difference and tried to capitalise on it as an advantage, by using the somewhat meaningless phrase "fully forged" to suggest that the newfangled drop forging produced an inferior product. Roger Ball notes that some examples were marked HAND FORGED SHEFFIELD ENGLAND on the top of the blade and also shows a leaflet from 1961 saying "all chisels and gouges are hand forged. This method does not disrupt the molecules of the steel as does production drop forging."

However, he also shows that later Marples chisels have round necks, therefore they must have been drop forged, like the Buck chisels in the YT video.
Presumably Marples invested in drop forging not much later than Stanley, in the early sixties.

 

[nabs]

both the videos and Wm Marples site are tremendous - thanks for sharing Andy, and thanks DigitalM for asking the original question.

In Sheffield factories of old, bolsters that were soldered on, as opposed to forged, were said to be 'gobbed on' - not sure it was intended to be an entirely flattering term!

Also good to see the chap at the large grindstone in the Ashely Isles grinding video (toolsforworkingwood link above) as some of you will remember, the colloquial name for the seat the chap is sat on is an 'arseboard'. This is a fact I shall never tire of repeating!

more old terms can be found in A Glossary of Old Sheffield Trade Words and Dialect t