Marking Knives

[mark w]

Not rubbish at all.
The knife delusion is that because it is very precise it is also very accurate - but the mark isn't necessarily in precisely the right spot. Particularly problematic for a learner as a knife cut can't be rubbed out like a pencil mark and adding another mark sets up another problem.
There's a trick with a pencil whereby you spin it slowly as you draw so that it wears evenly and keeps a point in the centre.
There are places where a knife cut line is more or less essential - the most obvious being dovetail shoulder lines - as you say a place to put a chisel so that they all line up spot on.

I believe in being taught as you mean to go on so a marking knife in furniture making should be used from the off.
A knife is more accurate than a pencil, there is no delusion or doubt about that.
Spinning pencils, a knife is easier.

 

[ey_tony]

Really interesting Tony. I dont suppose you have a picture of your hacksaw knives? What kind of shape did you cut the hacksaw to make a blade? And when you say shallow angle, single side?

As an aside, are you still organ building? And if so I'd be curious who you work for. Brother is an organist. And my other brother is an architect who has just been involved in a new organ installation in Eton, of all places!

Sorry for the delay I've looked everywhere for one of my old knives to show as an example but I think the last time I saw it my neighbour had borrowed it and I somehow don't think he returned it so that's on my to do list as I have a hacksaw which I do know needs a new blade. I still have a virtually unused traditional marking knife but I find that too clumsy.

Nothing remarkable about the hacksaw knives themselves. We usually used 1/2" dowel for jobs and it was very often 1/2" for making the handle of the knives too. Depending upon the width of the blades, if they were wider than the dowel we simply ground them down to produce a tang the width of the handle and then the cutting edge was ground. I've looked up blades on Amazon to give an example of the taper and I suppose the easiest way to describe the ground blade is like a scalpel or similar to the craft blades in the link below.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-Spot-Tools-Precision-Blades/dp/B09CLDS726/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0?pd_rd_w=7H4ba&content-id=amzn1.sym.6aea875e-359f-49f3-864f-cff62d586b6a:amzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=6aea875e-359f-49f3-864f-cff62d586b6a&pf_rd_r=FV44QQERDZWR500KBHTF&pd_rd_wg=8ujCQ&pd_rd_r=8d7afe14-568c-4575-a171-2df0eb5c773e&pd_rd_i=B09CLDS726
The knives were used for more than one purposes but looking back we tended to grind the primary sides off that suited our chirality and usuage.
We usually had more than one of these knives as they were used for different purposes so ground and shaped accordingly. With being used in a craft like organ building the tools we made were usually finished off neatly

I'm completely out of touch with the organ building industry these days. I gave up organ building as I wanted to make my fortune elsewhere. My true calling was to be a singer/musician and I managed to achieve that over the next 14 years and did well I suppose and by the end of my first year had gone by, I'd bought my first home outright. It needed extensive restoration but it allowed me along with my career to do all the things I would never have had the opportunity of doing had I stayed in organ building and never having a mortgage was the best thing ever.

Organ building taught me an awful lot about woodwork and I gained several skills and not just woodwork which certainly helped me with my house restoration and many many times more over the past 50 years so I'll be eternally grateful for the skills I learned.
I don't do much woodwork these days due to having COPD and other health issues but with the aid of a friend to do all the heavy lifting I was able to build my dual purpose potting/garden shed from absolute scratch which is the best shed I've ever had

The reproduction two piece Victorian corner cabinet you can see through the open door I built around 30 years ago but never got it glazed so it languished in the garage until it ended up in the potting shed. It's one of those jobs I never got around to finishing but one day.....

 

[mark w]

Looks like a nightmare to use! At the very least it needs a comfortable handle. Could do with a lower price tag too - £10 max, or just find a handy penknife, modified kitchen knife, piece of hacksaw blade etc.

Very comfortable as it is, no need for a handle which also makes it dead easy to sharpen.
Mine did cost a tenner, as I said no box when I purchased mine.
Its quicker and easier to buy a knife, I'm a cabinet maker not a tool maker, not enough time in the day for that.

 

[Dolau]

Standard mid-sixties O-level woodwork. At least in these parts.
geoff

I did school woodwork in the mid 60’s and don’t remember any sharp knives being involved

 

[ey_tony]

I attended the local RC school in the 1950s. In those days they schools only received a 50% grant for running costs from the state because it was a faith school so everything was at a premium as the church paid the rest.
It was only nearing the end of my school days that they obtained one of those fancy windy desk model pencil sharpeners, as up to that point if we didn't have our own pocket pencil sharpener we had to sharpen our pencils using a single sided safety razor blade blade provided by the teacher.... yes that's correct 12 year olds and older using sharp things to sharpen our pencils.
There was the odd accident but the teachers had an ample supply of bandages and elastoplasts at the ready just in case.
If you cut yourself once, you didn't do it again but can you imagine these days the number of parent's hands being thrown up in horror at the thought of their child using such implements?
Heaven forbid we even played chasing type games in the playground each day...none of these namby pamby rules, we were proper children in those days who actually lost when playing competitive games with only one winner..it makes me wonder how I survived those school days.

 

[1275gt]

I tend to use both pencil and a scalpel for my marking out. Only con with the scalpel is the blade is so fine it can wander if you're not paying attention and the knife line can be a bit shallow.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

I also use both pencils and a knife. Pencil is a Pentel with .03mm lead and the knife is a Narex two edge. The knife works best for me, just sharp and not super sharp.

As far as a”knife wall”, Roy Underhill demonstrated that on one of his shows 30 years ago and attributed it to some old cabinetmaker.

 

[jsjwilson]

Sorry for the delay I've looked everywhere for one of my old knives to show as an example but I think the last time I saw it my neighbour had borrowed it and I somehow don't think he returned it so that's on my to do list as I have a hacksaw which I do know needs a new blade. I still have a virtually unused traditional marking knife but I find that too clumsy.

Nothing remarkable about the hacksaw knives themselves. We usually used 1/2" dowel for jobs and it was very often 1/2" for making the handle of the knives too. Depending upon the width of the blades, if they were wider than the dowel we simply ground them down to produce a tang the width of the handle and then the cutting edge was ground. I've looked up blades on Amazon to give an example of the taper and I suppose the easiest way to describe the ground blade is like a scalpel or similar to the craft blades in the link below.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-Spot-Tools-Precision-Blades/dp/B09CLDS726/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0?pd_rd_w=7H4ba&content-id=amzn1.sym.6aea875e-359f-49f3-864f-cff62d586b6a:amzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=6aea875e-359f-49f3-864f-cff62d586b6a&pf_rd_r=FV44QQERDZWR500KBHTF&pd_rd_wg=8ujCQ&pd_rd_r=8d7afe14-568c-4575-a171-2df0eb5c773e&pd_rd_i=B09CLDS726
The knives were used for more than one purposes but looking back we tended to grind the primary sides off that suited our chirality and usuage.
We usually had more than one of these knives as they were used for different purposes so ground and shaped accordingly. With being used in a craft like organ building the tools we made were usually finished off neatly

I'm completely out of touch with the organ building industry these days. I gave up organ building as I wanted to make my fortune elsewhere. My true calling was to be a singer/musician and I managed to achieve that over the next 14 years and did well I suppose and by the end of my first year had gone by, I'd bought my first home outright. It needed extensive restoration but it allowed me along with my career to do all the things I would never have had the opportunity of doing had I stayed in organ building and never having a mortgage was the best thing ever.

Organ building taught me an awful lot about woodwork and I gained several skills and not just woodwork which certainly helped me with my house restoration and many many times more over the past 50 years so I'll be eternally grateful for the skills I learned.
I don't do much woodwork these days due to having COPD and other health issues but with the aid of a friend to do all the heavy lifting I was able to build my dual purpose potting/garden shed from absolute scratch which is the best shed I've ever had

The reproduction two piece Victorian corner cabinet you can see through the open door I built around 30 years ago but never got it glazed so it languished in the garage until it ended up in the potting shed. It's one of those jobs I never got around to finishing but one day.....
View attachment 168197

Thanks for the response. We all make our own way through life!! I wanted to make violins and spend my life working in wood but ended up in medicine. I'm lucky to have had a secure career structure, but the pressures have played havoc with my mental health. Ultimately there is something immersive about working with hands and creating which I've come back to because it has helped deal with the black dog. This is one of the reasons why I want to set up a men's shed. Am very curious about your singing career now!! I love your potting shed, which looks fab. And you are right about being grateful for skills. The house we are in hadn't been touched since the 50s. The kitchen was all 50cm deep, made out of wood with formica worktop. Someone had bodged a modern oven in at somepoint and built a box around it to fit it into the kitchen, albeit sticking out. What was amazing about the kitchen was that every door and drawer fitted, and opened and closed without issues. The drawers all had dovetails joints. Later we met a joiner in his mid 80s in the village and it transpired this was the first kitchen he had made as an apprentice joiner.

 

[jsjwilson]

I also use both pencils and a knife. Pencil is a Pentel with .03mm lead and the knife is a Narex two edge. The knife works best for me, just sharp and not super sharp.

As far as a”knife wall”, Roy Underhill demonstrated that on one of his shows 30 years ago and attributed it to some old cabinetmaker.

Thanks everyone for an unintentionally fascinating thread. I am detecting a certain antipathy to Paul Sellers. To be fair to my impression of him, I didn't think he had claimed to have invented it so much as come to his own epiphany that he wasn't marking so much as making a wall to work with and that once he realised that it changed the way he worked. You will all no doubt have more informed views than me though! Thanks for everyone's contributions.

 

[Jacob]

I also use both pencils and a knife. Pencil is a Pentel with .03mm lead and the knife is a Narex two edge. The knife works best for me, just sharp and not super sharp.

As far as a”knife wall”, Roy Underhill demonstrated that on one of his shows 30 years ago and attributed it to some old cabinetmaker.

The so-called "knife wall" has been common practice from early days. The only novelty is that someone gave it a name.
We were taught it at school, probably because it was more likely to produce an accurate cut than our early attempts at sawing to a pencil line.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

To clarify, I didn’t mean to denigrate Paul Sellers by any means! His abilities are miles beyond what I could ever hope to be, andI do watch his videos on occasion. I was noting that the methodology of the knifed line predates Mr. Sellers.

 

[steve355]

My recommendation DC Marking Knife
Phil used to sell them without the box, which made them cheaper, not sure if he still does.
If you make the DC jig, it's easily and neatly sharpened.

I have a knife like this. I made it from an offcut of O1 in 5 mins. I wanted a knife that could register flat to a plane sole for marking plane irons for grinding. Now it’s my go to knife, because I can get it sharp enough to reliably sever cross grain fibres, which my other knives all seem to fail at.

James Wright has a nice take on these, but with some ergonomic improvements. Not flat though. But when I have a spare hour I’ll make one to complement my flat one.

James Wright Knife

 

[mark w]

I have a knife like this. I made it from an offcut of O1 in 5 mins. I wanted a knife that could register flat to a plane sole for marking plane irons for grinding. Now it’s my go to knife, because I can get it sharp enough to reliably sever cross grain fibres, which my other knives all seem to fail at.

James Wright has a nice take on these, but with some ergonomic improvements. Not flat though. But when I have a spare hour I’ll make one to complement my flat one.

James Wright Knife

James makes some interesting but obvious points in this video, personally I find the rectangular section of the Philly knife makes it easy to sharpen, no curved surfaces, I've not found the need for a finger recess or handle, to me these are hindrances rather than advantages.

 

[ey_tony]

Thanks for the response. We all make our own way through life!! I wanted to make violins and spend my life working in wood but ended up in medicine. I'm lucky to have had a secure career structure, but the pressures have played havoc with my mental health. Ultimately there is something immersive about working with hands and creating which I've come back to because it has helped deal with the black dog. This is one of the reasons why I want to set up a men's shed. Am very curious about your singing career now!! I love your potting shed, which looks fab. And you are right about being grateful for skills. The house we are in hadn't been touched since the 50s. The kitchen was all 50cm deep, made out of wood with formica worktop. Someone had bodged a modern oven in at somepoint and built a box around it to fit it into the kitchen, albeit sticking out. What was amazing about the kitchen was that every door and drawer fitted, and opened and closed without issues. The drawers all had dovetails joints. Later we met a joiner in his mid 80s in the village and it transpired this was the first kitchen he had made as an apprentice joiner.

We all have hopes and dreams, sometimes they come off sometimes they don't. I was fortunate in that I succeeded in dong the things I set out to achieve though maybe not in the usual sequential order.
When I bought my first home I bought it outright but needed a complete restoration. It was two adjoining houses which had originally been one house a century earlier so I restored them and turned them back into one large five bedroomed house.
I learned to do all the jobs and having the woodwork skills I made the entire kitchen myself. It took over five years to complete the work as I was on the road touring and I had to juggle that and family life but once it was completed it set me up for life with regard to home ownership.
I was lucky in that I could plan when I toured and when I took time off, so I tried to tour for 3 to 4 weeks and stay home for two or three so that I had time to get the bigger jobs done and spend quality time with my family.

As to my actual singing career I was successful in my singing career but like all good things there is also a downside. I was married with a wife and two young children and it got to the stage where I was touring and on the road up to 40 weeks per year which was great fun for me but quite tough for my wife with two small kids and besides quite frankly I got sick of living out of a suitcase and while the money I was earning was excellent, it didn't make up for missing my wife, kids and home life so I decided to pack it all in after 14 years. Which I did but to prevent myself from being tempted back onto the road I got rid of my gear and never touched a guitar until about 7 years ago.

I always wanted to go to university so I set up in business, did a couple of Open University degree units ( Maths and Science) to get me up to scratch and then went on to university as a mature student and gained a BSc Hons in Geology-Geophysics which I thoroughly enjoyed. I had no mortgage and enough in the bank so it was probably the most relaxed period of my life.
I never used the degree but I learned an awful lot from the degree and set up successful businesses. One way of relaxing was to make pieces of reproduction furniture just as they'd made them in centuries gone by and it kept my hand in with the tools.

These days I have a fully equipped 24 track home recording studio, a collection of guitars and I enjoy playing just for my own pleasure, a far cry from my early music days.
I have a very well equipped home workshop and although I have COPD, with the aid of the machines I still manage to make the odd piece to keep my hand in though I'd do more if I was healthier.

 

[ColinDeVelen]

There was an article in Popular Woodworking about striking knives back in September, called 'The Striking Knife'. I saw one of these tools on a second hand site, but it had gone before I had the dosh to buy it, so I talked to a tame blacksmith friend of mine, and he made one based on the plans in the article. It's nothing fancy, but I wanted to give it a try just for sh1ts and giggles really. Wasn't expensive.
BTW, I am not in any way trying to tell anyone that I know better than them, or that this is some new fancy way of doing things or anything like that. I just thought it might be interesting.

 

[BentonTool]

The swann morton scalpels make excellent marking knives

Agree... one of my best marking knives.