Marking accurate mitres referencing face side - great tool

[Anonymous]

Sorry folks I'm back - just couldn't keep away.
Bevel Boss looks a neat tool but it's just basically a protractor. Perfectly OK equivalents can be bought much cheaper from a stationer, or a drawing office supplier, or all sorts of fancy ones from a yacht chandler (navigation dept)
Then all you need is a sliding bevel. If you find that it's innaccurate you are just not doing it right - try again and double check etc. If you find it gets knocked out of true then tighten it up a bit more next time.
I find that with mitres it's handy to leave a margin of error which you can then ease in with a plane, unless you have a mitreing guillotine or accurate table saw.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Paul Chapman]

Welcome back, Jacob :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

As MrC has correctly said, half a degree out at the corner of a secret mitred dovetail makes a huge difference and half a degree may be the thickness of the line on one of these setting bevels. This is where the error occurs...it's not much, but it matters. 45deg is 45deg not 451/2deg. If you are doing the sort of work where the innacuracy can be pulled up with a cramp, that's good, better to get it right it the first place - Rob

 

[David C]

Yes, I used a protractor and sliding bevel for many years, plus the time consuming trial and error testing of the result, which was possible but a PITA.

I found problems with all the rosewood and brass adjustable bevels I had.

The sides of the stocks were not straight, square or even parallel with the opposite edge. Once the brass had been filed back a little it was possible to plane a face side and then the sides....... they are quite good now.

The same sort of observations apply to those gauges with the redundant badly fitted "wear strips".

I enjoy the certainty of a dedicated tool but have no desire to change the habits of others.

Phil kindly posted the supplier in case it was of interest.

David Charlesworth

 

[Alf]

I dunno, perhaps someone will market rules in every possible length in 0.5mm increments so we can take out the last modicum of uncertainty of which side of the line of a rule we should mark from too? ](*,) C'mon, Rob, we deal with the thickness of lines all the time; it's part of the fun... :wink:

As far as protractors go, deplorable tendency to break the darn things I'm ashamed to say, so something in metal appealed to me a good deal more.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Scrit]

Welcome back MrG (Jacob)

As far as protractors go, deplorable tendency to break the darn things I'm ashamed to say, so something in metal appealed to me a good deal more.

Ah, like one of these?

I know cheaper alternatives are available, but I thought you'd be a sucker for a Starrett............. (Light blue touch paper, grease slops, stand well back......?)

Scrit

 

[Alf]

Scrit, funnily enough my Starretts are strictly secondhand and I haven't found one of those yet. But one of them is still on topic: ici. :wink: Anyway, I like my BevelBoss and will not be moved :lol: but concede you probably need to use one yourself to fully appreciate it - I'd never have thought to buy it in a thousand years. Alas, while the fence on the LV is a nice addition it's a bit on the small side for my liking, albeit a bit more pocket-friendly.

Cheers, Alf

 

[DomValente]

My preference is for these protractors here I also like their centre finding rule.


Dom

 

[Good Surname or what ?]

Quick update on service from CIS. Squares arrived today as promised - straight from Germany I believe - but CIS paperwork. Very efficent.

I ordered two. so if I ever get to a bash some lucky person might get the spare.

 

[Loz_S]

An alternative maker of 45°, 60°, 120° and 135° "squares" is Vogel from Germany. They also have a distributor in England.

Their website is here:Vogel Measuring Tools

and a link to their catalogue is here: Precision Squares

No connection, I just like their range.

 

[Anonymous]

I think we are all fools trying to plane to only 1 thou. Let's all mark and cut to a micron. No, wait a nanometre or better still, a femtometre.......

It is wood after all :roll:

Or maybe all this talk of 1/2 a degree here and there is irrelevant as none of us can cut that accurately with a hand saw or chisel (please don't bother telling me you can and do work to better than 1/2 a degrre with hand tools) and if we use a machine, the marking is pretty much irrelevant as the cut is set on the machine, not the wood.

 

[Bean]

I think you are right Tony, but I have a question

Would that +/- Micron marking be before or after you breathe on the wood and swell it with the moisture coming out of your lungs ?? :wink:
and I assume it would be taken in a sealed and controlled environment like my workshop.

But on a minor point My Stanley No 3 can plane to the line !!

 

[Alf]

I assume it would be taken in a sealed and controlled environment like my workshop.

Funny you should mention that:

I bought some tools from a patternmaker last year, and he told me about his tool chest. He was working for Bristol Aero Engines at the time, in the humidity controlled patternmakers' shop. He set to to build his chest, a machinest's type with all the drawers. Long and hard did he labour, until he had a beautiful finished chest in mahogany with each and every drawer planed to a "piston" fit. You know, where it's so perfect there's a little resistance from the air trapped behind the drawer as you push it home? When he left the patternmakers' shop for the last time, naturally he took it home with him.

Now Bristol isn't the driest spot in the country, as I'm sure you're all aware. By the time he'd got it home from the controlled conditions of the workshop to the slight dampness of his front room every single drawer was stuck fast.

Cheers, Alf

 

[David C]

Loz,

Thanks for that link.

They seem to be the manufacturer of the 135 squares which I find so useful.

Also the precision straight edges and squares sold by **** Fine tools.

Tony,

I really don't think precision woodworking is that difficult, even though it may not be to everyones taste.
If the marking out knife/gauge line is in the right place, one can simply saw close and then drop a chisel into that knife line and pare/chop away the remainder.

It is clear however that accurate marking out and stock preparation are areas that many amateurs struggle with.

I find it odd that the concept of precision seems anathema to so many woodworkers. The principles are very simple but require a certain amount of discipline and attention.

There were/are some expert historic timber frame restorers at Mapledurham. Church roofs etc. When splicing in new sections they did not like a gap that a razor blade would fit in.

David Charlesworth

 

[woodbloke]

David C wrote:

I really don't think precision woodworking is that difficult, even though it may not be to everyones taste.
If the marking out knife/gauge line is in the right place, one can simply saw close and then drop a chisel into that knife line and pare/chop away the remainder.

It is clear however that accurate marking out and stock preparation are areas that many amateurs struggle with.

I find it odd that the concept of precision seems anathema to so many woodworkers. The principles are very simple but require a certain amount of discipline and attention.

As Mr C has so neatly pointed out, this is the basis for all high quality work which to me is what we ought to be striving for...not always achieved, but that's the goal. In discussion with Pete (Newt) last week tho' we both agreed that there's a lot more 'thinking time' rather than 'doing time' when you're after this sort of quality work - Rob

 

[Alf]

So we'd be dismissing a piece of Chippendale or Sheraton as low quality work if you could get a razor blade into one of the joints then?

Cheers, Alf

 

[devonwoody]

Let you know later today if I need one of those set up tools. :wink:

 

[newt]

I don't see anything wrong with trying to seek perfection or should I say precision. I am an amateur with the time to try the challenges of very accurate joint making, I more than often don't succeed. I can understand for production work this may not apply. But lets be honest most of us play around with wood because we like to, we get a buzz, and if like I saw on the TV recently you are happy with finger joints with 2 to 3 mill gaps then thats fine also, it just happens that is not for me. If I am really honest to finish a project is satisfying, however my real pleasure is in the thinking and the making.

 

[Shultzy]

I agree with you whole heartily Newt. If you don't aim for perfection you are never going to achieve it. We have to remember that most professionals have to make a living and may not have the time to make everything to perfection. Those of us who have plenty of time are lucky to have chance to achieve perfection.

 

[woodbloke]

Perfection is worth aiming for but will never, ever be achieved except at the expense of enormous effort and time. In most practical work a really close inspection with the Mk 1 eyeball will almost certainly reveal small abnormalities which tho' acceptable and can hardly be seen, are none the less there. Precision is I think is a much more practical thing to aim for. It takes a little bit of care, a lot of thought, good sharp tools, accurate marking out and eventual cutting. IMO by being precise in what we do can we edge towards making a job that's almost perfect....or at least as good as we can make it - Rob