Making Money

[dave261266]

Guys,

I wanted to gauge opinion from your experience.

In these difficult times I have found myself out of work (normally IT). I have been thinking for some time that I should get out of the rat race and do something completely different but I haven't really had the guts to do it. Now it's not so much having the guts it's more why not?

The trouble is that I have no idea how I could make woodworking pay in a career sense and was hoping that I could pick your brains on the subject.

I'm not sure that I'm good enough to do exceptionally fine furniture but I have done a lot of what I would call normal furniture (kitchen doors/cupboards, bedroom furniture - beds, wardrobes, chest of drawers, bedside cabinets, occasional tables and the like)

Is this what I should focus on ? would niche stuff be better ? I have made pens and bowls with the lathe in the past, would it be better selling something like that ?

Any Thoughts ?

Many Thanks

Dave

 

[Rob_H]

This topic comes up every so often and it's often said that hand made kitchens were the only real way t o make money, and even then it's not easy. I don't think there's more than hobby money in pens and bowls. No one should stop you doing what you want to do, but it's always best to be a realist.

 

[Digit]

What determined my going solo was simple, what were my out goings?
If you have a mortgage, a lot of HP debts etc and a large family success is obviously much more difficult than if you are free of such expenses.
As far as I know there is still governmental help, financial, for start ups.
Ask at your Job Centre, they should be able to help, and best of luck.

Roy.

 

[BradNaylor]

It's not just kitchens.

The concensus among virtually all pro woodworkers would be that bespoke fitted furniture is the only real way to go.

At one end of the spectrum would be radiator cabinets and meter cupboards and at the other £100k+ kitchens. There is plenty of scope in between.

The market for freestanding furniture and small craft items has gone to cheap imports. It wil not come back.

There are some 'designer makers' around making beautiful one-off pieces but most have independent means, teach, or do kitchens on the quiet to supplement their income.

:lol:

Cheers
Brad

 

[MikeG.]

Dave,

Don't forget that the easy part is making and fitting the furniture. With any business.......any business at all, the most important part, and probably the most difficult part when you first start...........is getting the orders.

Every businessman is a salesman. Brad, no doubt, is a decent maker of fitted furniture. But that is as nothing compared to how good a salesman he is, whatever he says!

So, don't ask youself if you can make a fitted kitchen every fortnight........ask yourself if you can sell 20 or more in a year.

Best of luck to you!

Mike

 

[matt]

These days customer's are invariably looking for value for money and prepared to sacrifice materials in favour of getting the right look/solution for the money. Fitted furniture provides more scope in this respect versus standalone pieces.

Also... value for money is a movable scale. I have friends that have no practical skills at all so are more inclined to pay for the services they need versus me who would love to pay someone else to do some of the stuff around the house but cannot justify spending the money when I can do it myself. So value for money to "them" versus me is a whole different price bracket.

You need to be able to read your customers and harvest the ones that will make a profit for you versus those that will cost you money if you allow them to waste your time.

For those that you harvest - give them a reason to buy "today".

 

[BradNaylor]

Don't forget that the easy part is making and fitting the furniture. With any business.......any business at all, the most important part, and probably the most difficult part when you first start...........is getting the orders.

Every businessman is a salesman. Brad, no doubt, is a decent maker of fitted furniture. But that is as nothing compared to how good a salesman he is, whatever he says!

So, don't ask youself if you can make a fitted kitchen every fortnight........ask yourself if you can sell 20 or more in a year.

Very true.

I have been a salesman for a lot longer than I have been a furniture maker and as Mike says, it is by far the most important skill that any self employed person must aquire.

The good news is that it is very simple.

Any potential customer has a problem. They want or need a solution to that problem at a price they can afford and with the minimum of hassle. All you have to do is listen carefully, identify the problem as they see it and offer a solution within their budget.

Develop the ability to do this in a friendly manner within a few minutes of talking to them and you wil have orders coming out of your ears.

Cheers
Brad

 

[OPJ]

Any potential customer has a problem. They want or need a solution to that problem at a price they can afford and with the minimum of hassle. All you have to do is listen carefully, identify the problem as they see it and offer a solution within their budget

I totally agree.

In contrast to that, I read an interesting quote from a "designer maker" earlier on, which reads: "They are going to get what I want to make." Apparently, his client only required a "simple coffee table; a plank and four legs." :?

To me, that sounds quite arrogant and certainly ignorant of the client's brief. Then again, you could question their motives for approaching a 'designer-maker', renown for creating speculative one-off pieces, in the first place... :roll:

 

[Doctor]

I would always advise on having experience prior to setting up, there are techniques and tips which will save hours of time, these are picked up in pro shops, without knowledge of these, lots of time can be wasted.
Mike has offered the best advise so far, getting orders is the hard part.

 

[dave261266]

Thanks guys,

This is all really useful.

 

[joiner_sim]

I talked about this recently with a colleague, and said that if I lost my job to the credit crunch and couldn't find employment elsewhere, I think I'd go self-employed aiming at doing the domestic work. At the end of the day you do want the customer wants. If you take a look at my fitted wardrobes, for a relative, they wanted it to look good but not cost too much, and so explains the construction method, by the way materials still came to between 500-750. And many commented on the high storage space being too high. But it was specified that they wanted the wardrobes to go right up to the ceiling so dust could not settle, so thats what they got.

If you can cut a corner because it won't be seen, E.G. going to be painted, then why not?

 

[Night Train]

As an aside, here is my 'getting out of the rat race' tale.

Up until a few years ago I was doing very well with a nice desk job for a local authority. Income was good and as a agency worker I was getting a nice range of jobs and each time I moved up a little in responsibility and salary. I was well on the way to a great career as I was just getting into consultancy work but I looked at a friend whose career I was effectively following. She worked from 5am to 9pm 6 days a week and sometimes on Sundays too. She had a huge amount of savings but no time to spend any of it and no time to form any relationships either. I really didn't fancy that sort of life.

Also, I was bored, having previously been an electrical and heat and vent engineer, I wanted to get back 'on tools' where I would have something to show for my day's work and pay.

I took the plunge one day and booked a week's leave and handed in a weeks notice to my manager and walked out that very afternoon.

I spent a week thinking about what to do and then collected all my tools together and started calling on friends and work contacts offering my services as an electrician, plumber and carpenter. That gradually picked up to a regular but small amount of work, about 2-3 days a week but it still wasn't what I wanted to do.

I wanted to be creative so I looked at art, sculpture, music, acting and furniture making. I found a contact at Burnley College where I decided to study the HND furniture course. That led to building my own workshop and a small client list and also teaching Furniture Studies back at Burnley College.

As part of the course I got into artwork and sculptural furniture and through having a much better 'work/life' balance I was able to start a course of study for my MSc in Environmental Architecture and a PGCE and I act and build sets and props with a local Amateur Dramatics Toupe as well.

It all makes me happy and contented in life though not particularly wealthy.
I am only now just getting into sorting out a website to cover all my range of work and interests.

 

[EddieJ]

I've been self employed for about 22yrs now, and as has already been stated, selling yourself and your product is one of the most important aspects of running any business.
You also need to be very good at reading people (potential clients) and what their requirements are, or rather what they may think they are.
The last year and a half has been very tough me, and I'm now working for wages, rather that profit, and I have had to come up with little detail and specification quirks that just pitch my oak frames above that of my local competition.
Important aspects that I have found to clinching jobs, is to firstly be very polite and punctual when looking at work, and to get the quotation completed and in as soon as possible. You would be surprised by just how many jobs can be won because of a competitors failure to any of the above.

For some time now, I have been sick to death of my work and just how competitive that it has become, but something happened today, that could prove to turn my whole world around. I don't want to say too much about it, but through a bit of water taking by some colleagues over something that I was making, I have come up with an idea for a product that has the potential to make me both very happy and financially well off.
The downside, is that it is a product that anyone with a workshop could make, so I need to get the idea sealed tight to prevent this.
I'm looking forward to what could be a new and rewarding challenge in my life.

 

[jlawrence]

Things that mean someone never gets business from me:
1) failing completely to turn up for an appointment.
2) turning up late and not giving a decent apology.
3) failing to provide the quote required.
4) providing the quote late.

I'm in the process of getting a quote for a new kitchen. The first company we got in (fairly well known) won't even provide a written quote, they got told quite simply thankyou for completely wasting 3 hours. Just a rough quote (as Brad does) would have sufficed at the beginning.

Before going solo you need to sit down and seriously work out what is the minimum income you need in order to survive. Then you can work out how to get it.

If you can work it out then there is nothing to beat working for yourself. Yes, you can end up working many more hours but you're doing so safe in the knowledge that you're not doing it to line someone else's pocket.

 

[RogerS]

.....All you have to do is listen carefully, identify the problem as they see it and offer a solution within their budget.
....

Brad, do you come out up front and ask them what their budget is?

Reason for asking is that, pure serendipity this, I was in my local tool repair shop asking them to look at a slipping drill clutch and I had with me a small piece of ash which just happened to have had some plugs cut.

At the end of our chat re the drill, the old guy asked me if I was DIY or a chippie.

Chippie I replied.

Are you a cabinet maker? Yes.

Would you like to come round and see about some fitted ash bookcases?

So out of the blue there is the potential of some work but what to charge? Too cheap and that might win the business but sets expectations as I hope all his friends will come round and admire said bookcase. Too high and I run the risk of losing the work.

And as it would be my first 'paid' commission.......devil and the deep blue sea.

 

[devonwoody]

If I was younger and wanted to work with wood, I would choose conservatories, the price range for one of these can be as low as £6000 and at the top end £50.000 plus for the same completed size. So you can pitch your price to the customer potential.

You would need someone to fall back on at times with erection but that could be on a cooperative basis, you help him and he helps you.

 

[BradNaylor]

Brad, do you come out up front and ask them what their budget is?


So out of the blue there is the potential of some work but what to charge? Too cheap and that might win the business but sets expectations as I hope all his friends will come round and admire said bookcase. Too high and I run the risk of losing the work.

And as it would be my first 'paid' commission.......devil and the deep blue sea.

First of all estimate how long the job will take you to complete. Include the time spent sourcing the timber and doing any fitting that is required. Add a couple of days on to be on the safe side.

My own personal rule of thumb is then to quote on the basis of £250 per day. In my business this breaks down as £50 for materials, £40 for overheads, and £160 for me. You wil be able to work out your own requirements.

I don't generally ask for a budget, but I soon find out whether I'm within it by looking at their faces when I give them a 'ball park' figure.

Cheers
Brad

 

[Jake]

You would need someone to fall back on at times with erection but that could be on a cooperative basis, you help him and he helps you.

:shock:

 

[motownmartin]

You would need someone to fall back on at times with erection but that could be on a cooperative basis, you help him and he helps you.

:shock:

:lol: even when you read it a few times, it stretches the imagination :lol:

 

[devonwoody]

You would need someone to fall back on at times with erection but that could be on a cooperative basis, you help him and he helps you.

:shock:

:lol: even when you read it a few times, it stretches the imagination :lol:

naughty, naughty.

(It does happen, the crowd that erec. hm put u. hm alright built our conservatory got a couple of tradesmen in to hold up the roof beams whilst bolts were fitted. )