Making doors

[mpooley]

Hi

strange question maybe but

with say a normal size external door where you would normally use a mortice and tenon joint why have i never seen anyone use a pair (or more)
of large through dowels ?

is there a good reason?

obviously they would show but so does a through tennon.
and they would be a lot easier

or would a Festool domino be up to the job?

Mike

 

[p111dom]

Cheap door used to use this method of dowling. I've never had that much sucess with down joints myself and a mortice and tennon is much stronger. With modern industrial machinery I guess it's just as easy to do the M&T as opposed to the dowel so might as well go for the better option.

Festools dominos are too short in my opinion for high strength joints required for a door. They don't penetrate deep enough into the wood.

 

[Karl]

Hi Mike

Funnily enough I am about to start work on a new back door for our kitchen - it will be a very simple affair, with a single full height double glazed unit.

All joints will be through wedged M&T's. I think it is the best joint for strength - dowels just wouldn't cut it. And domino's are way too short.

Cheers

Karl

 

[mpooley]

Im just not sure why dowels (large dowels) say 1 inch diameter and say 3 of them wouldnt cut it?

not arguing just interested

Mike

 

[Mr T]

Hi

The problem with dowels is that much of the gluing surface is end grain regardless of the diameter of the dowel, whereas m&T's have good side grain to side grain surfaces.

Chris

 

[mpooley]

Hi

The problem with dowels is that much of the gluing surface is end grain regardless of the diameter of the dowel, whereas m&T's have good side grain to side grain surfaces.

Chris

I hope i dont sound argumentative but where is the endgrain?

only at one end of the dowel surely? or am i going mad?

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

I thought it was because they shrink too much?

 

[Mr T]

Hi Mike

I'm talking about the end grain of the piece the dowel goes into.

The dowels will hold fine in the rails, but in the stiles a good part of the dowel will be touching the end grain of the stile.

As a restorer, when I take a chair apart the dowels stay in the rails but are loose in the legs because of the end grain gluing.

I hope that makes sense.

Chris

 

[dickm]

The front door of our last house but one, built 1934 according to the plaque over the door, used three dowels of about 20mm diameter in each of the joints. Seemed to work OK, and I only replaced the door in about 1980 because it was a hideous style!

 

[punkrockdad]

ooops.

just made a door 50mm thick by 1200mm wide by 2000mm tall all wedged together with the biggest dominos in my box.

Its not droppd yet, but i'll keep you posted.

 

[johnf]

mike
plenty of comercialy made doors use dowels but the better quality ones are M&T and are generaly more expensive that must tell you something

john

 

[mpooley]

Thanks for all the replies

some interesting thoughts - I do understand that M&T joints would be better I was just genuinely interested about using the dowels.

as an ace bodger i still think they would be perfectly ok in most instances with modern glues and of course very easy to make

i am making 2 sets of french doors in oak at the moment and struggling with getting the shoulders perfect ( wont spend £160 on a shoulder plane! )

so you can see why the idea popped into my head

thanks

Mike

 

[wizer]

why not use loose tennons, pinned?

 

[Timmo]

why not use loose tennons, pinned?

Good idea Wizer...I was just thinking that myself...I feel like I am doing a lot of m&t's at ther moment and the bugger is always getting the tenons to fit spot on...I am only using pressure treated rough sawn wood so all the bits are not the same size exactly but for the stuff I am making it really doesn't matter but I was thinking about using floating tenons as that would make the whole process very much easier....I think I might give that a go on my next one...
In terms of the dowels question..I guess it is something to do with what I am picking up on at the moment...dowels would do the job and if big enough and done right then would be fit for purpose, but for woodworkers we sometimes like to build in some extra reassurance or the belt and braces approach...It is like a personal woodworking work ethic or something..
I have read in a few places that floating tenons are supposed to be just as strong as a proper tenon so there isn't really a need to pin them..or is there?
Interesting stuff.
Cheers
Timmo

 

[OPJ]

If a door joint eventually fails, dowels can be used (through the face of the stiles) to draw-bore and pin the shoulders back against the edge of the stile.

 

[Digit]

For some reason Dovetail joints have acquired a certain mystique and a rep for difficulty, but personally I have always found M&Ts to be one of the most difficult to produce accurately, now I machine them using jigs.

Roy.

 

[marcus]

You can pin or wedge through dowels and this makes them quite a bit stronger....

(in the context of dowels, pinning involves driving a pin into a hole drilled in the endgrain of the dowel)

Marcus

 

[mpooley]

I have a book on door making which i bought years ago and this guy was a proffessional door maker and all his plans use loose tennons.

My only problem there is yes i dont have to make a perfect tenon but i have to somehow make another mortice in the stiles now LOL
so i really do NEED that morticing jig then

cos i wont be able to make them on my morticer thats for sure