Making a framed ledge & brace gate - getting it square.

[chaoticbob]

This is a real beginner's question! I'm planning to make some gates, each about 2 metres high by 1.5 metres wide. My plan is to use M&T joins and I thought 'Aha, I can use this project to have a go at that drawbore M&T method I've been reading about." Then it struck that if I did that I would be relying entirely on the squareness of the tenon shoulders to ensure the squareness of the gate - there would be no 'wriggle room.' That would mean the tenon shoulders would have to be very accurately made indeed!
It may well be that I'm overthinking this - I'm making the transition from metalworking (where a thou is is quite a lot) and haven't yet developed a feel for how wood works.
Anyhow, I'd like to know how people would approach this - I suppose the gates don't need to dead square, but I don't want to end up with something from the Homer Simpson school of joinery.
Robin

 

[MikeG.]

Theoretically, the squareness of the shoulders will set the squareness of the gate.........but then, you will be cutting your shoulders square, won't you?

If you are worried, make the gate a fraction oversize, and plane down to square after you've finished. The reality is, though, that there will be enough flex in the gate pre-gluing that a diagonal sash-cramp will pull it into perfect squareness. Worrying about squareness of a gate is a nice theoretical exercise, but I don't think I have ever seen gate posts which are perfectly vertical and parallel, so you may be getting anxious over the wrong part of the job!

Good luck with it, and don't forget to post your photos.

 

[Robbo3]

I did exactly what you plan to do about 20 years ago, using softwood, & the gate is still going strong. That in itself is a marvel because my joints are so bad they would make a craftsman cry. Polyurethane glue helps to fill the gaps & a centre rail with diagonal cross braces prevent sagging.

 

[Just4Fun]

I made something with a similar construction recently and didn't really think things through to the extent that you are; I just cut the joinery and glued it up. From that limited experience I can conclude that one of 3 things must be true: My joinery is superb (experience suggests otherwise), I am extremely lucky (so why don't I win the lottery) or , most likely, it isn't that critical. Squareness was just not an issue, checked with a framing square and by measuring diagonals. Not sure what I would have done had it not turned out square. Planing the outside edge to force it square sounds a reasonable option. Good tip.

 

[MARK.B.]

Hey what's wrong with Homers school of joinery (homer)

 

[johnnyb]

The squareness or not relys on the material itself being flat,true and square. Then assuming your squares ok. All the shoulders will be parallel.
Imagine a long slow bow in a stile . Or rail any of these will cause frustration. Twist(wind) is a really annoying issue and it's worth sorting a lot of this out pre purchase.remember the shorter the bit the less these things matter.

 

[deema]

The gates that your making are large and will be heavy. You will need to draw tenon them and use something like Cascomite to glue them together. Make all your joints as perfect as you can, however, inevitably when you dry fit / glue it up it won’t be square. Practically the check for squareness is to measure the diagonals, they should be the same. Stuff moves, wood swells and contracts all of the time. The slightest movement of the face of the joint is transmitted into a large discrepancy. This is therefore easy to correct by pressing the longest diagonal in to make it square. You will need a clamp(s) that can go corner to corner to pull it square. The effect will be to slightly compress one side of the joints which is the same as ‘bruising the wood’ which doesn’t take much leverage. You do this with all of the other clamps in place, (I clamp even when drawing the tenons together when making an item square to stop the pressure going into the peg / hole and elongating the hole and making the joint potentially loose) the joints will remain closed up.

For anything critical such as door styles or rails twisted (in wind) wood should never be used. You can plane it square and true, however as soon as the humidity changes it will become is wind again.

 

[chaoticbob]

Thanks. It seems that I am being over anxious perhaps - I'll just get stuck in and see what happens. Best way to learn I guess, I'm just nervous because I've not done anything on this scale before.

MIkeG - your thirst for photographic evidence will have to be satisfied with a 'before' pic for now:

I'll post a pic of gates when done if not too embarrassing...

Deema, thanks for your detailed comments. I have actually bough a tub of Cascamite for this project, good to hear that's the right stuff. From what you say I'm going to need a couple of 2 metre cramps to go across the diagonals. I don't have those, but I guess I can fake something up. Four 1 meter clamps + hacksaw + welder = two 2 metre clamps is my equation.
Thanks to all for replies, Robin

 

[Doug71]

I don't know what your plans are for the new gates but don't copy the old ones. I would make all the rails and stiles from bigger sections and the sag bars at a steeper angle.

 

[ColeyS1]

I don't know what your plans are for the new gates but don't copy the old ones. I would make all the rails and stiles from bigger sections and the sag bars at a steeper angle.

I completely agree. Have the brace going from the top corner, straight to the bottom corner. This will mean notching it in the middle rail but it'll be a much better job.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[MikeG.]

You can pull diagonals in without sash cramps by using looped and twisted rope, and a stick.

 

[mr edd]

When gluing up if one diagonal measurement is longer than the other we simply skew the sash cramps an inch or so out of perpendicular to the door stiles, tighten and check diagonal again, i use a small square piece of window bead with a small brad in the end to do this and make pencil marks on the bead, when marks are equidistant add the second pair of cramps on top of the door this time 90 degrees to the stile.

Cheers

Edd

 

[MikeG.]

When gluing up if one diagonal measurement is longer than the other we simply skew the sash cramps an inch or so out of perpendicular to the door stiles, tighten and check diagonal again, i use a small square piece of window bead with a small brad in the end to do this and make pencil marks on the bead, when marks are equidistant add the second pair of cramps on top of the door this time 90 degrees to the stile.

Cheers

Edd

Like this:

This washstand was quite a long way out of square when I put it back together, so I did precisely as you describe. It works.

 

[chaoticbob]

Thanks for further tips on squaring up - the twisted rope idea is nice, but I can lash up some long clamps which will give me the option of using the skewed clamping method.

I was going to make a direct copy of the old gates, but I can see the sense of having single braces running corner to corner so I'll aim for that I think. The stiles and top rail of the originals are 3x3 (ie 70x70mm) rebated to take the 15mm T&G cladding - the middle and bottom are 70x55 to bring them flush on the inside of the gates, braces are 2x2. How much heavier do you reckon I need to go Doug?
Robin

 

[Doug71]

Robin, I would almost double the width of the wood you are using (the 70 mm thick is fine) although I do often overbuild things.

I made my pair of boarded gates (must learn to post photos), each gate is 1.8 m high x 1.9 m wide. The top rail is shaped but goes from 195 mm down to 120 mm. I made the hinge stile 145 mm, the middle stile 120 mm and both mid and bottom rails 145 mm deep.

My gates are wider then yours but for your size I would use 120 mm for stiles and top rail (you could probably get away with 95 mm for stiles) and 145 mm for mid and bottom rails.

Would be interested to know what others would use?

Doug

 

[chaoticbob]

Thanks Doug, I'll beef it up a bit then - though perhaps not as heavy as yours. The original gates failed through rot rather than structural design faults - but if I can replace with a sounder structural design that would be good. I expect I'll ask about durable exterior finishes next...
Robin.