Maguire Pin Less Leg Vice

[Jacob]

where I saw the original discussion
https://workingbyhand.wordpress.com/2021/03/02/some-thoughts-on-roubos-bench/

link to the actual plates in the book
Plate 11
https://archive.org/details/gri_33125009321916/page/n31/mode/2up

Plate 279
https://archive.org/details/gri_33125009321973/page/n809/mode/2up

Thanks for that. Interesting.
The vices not touching the floor are called "cabinet makers" which figures - for lighter work than the heavier version firmly touching the floor.
Both have curved faces so that the grip is at the top edge.
I'd go for the heavier job - simpler to make and use, and more capacity. Seems pointless that some of the modern offerings finish just inches from the floor.
If attached to the leg it would be pointless not having it also touching the floor IMHO
I guess if you got carried away you could have one leg and one slider, best of both worlds.

 

[BucksDad]

You can also see pictures of the moravian workbenches (from the 1800s) and how leg vises were used - well clear of the floor

https://www.flickr.com/photos/popularwoodworking/albums/72157625923731671/

 

[Cabinetman]

That’s very interesting thank you.
There are as many different benches out there as there are woodworkers, but when it comes to leg vices touching the floor or not there are just two camps.
Me, I’m somewhat in @Jacob s, but I suppose it depends on the floor, an old worn concrete one with the pebbles sticking up is a lot different to a new ply or OSB one, but to have the leg just supported on a wooden thread and a stick with holes in it does seem a bit flimsy.
would I have it dragging across the floor every time I used it? I suspect it might soon be shortened or fitted with a wide wooden roller?
Ian

 

[BucksDad]

This is an interesting one as well

https://hovartercustomvise.com/product/the-cheetah-leg-vise

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'm so glad I've never been tempted to get anything other than my Record 53e.

 

[thikone]

Here is poor man linear guide, if I can say that:



Also watch further to see old hinged leg vice, pretty much like that Cheetah.

 

[pgrbff]

That’s very interesting thank you.
There are as many different benches out there as there are woodworkers, but when it comes to leg vices touching the floor or not there are just two camps.
Me, I’m somewhat in @Jacob s, but I suppose it depends on the floor, an old worn concrete one with the pebbles sticking up is a lot different to a new ply or OSB one, but to have the leg just supported on a wooden thread and a stick with holes in it does seem a bit flimsy.
would I have it dragging across the floor every time I used it? I suspect it might soon be shortened or fitted with a wide wooden roller?
Ian

I don't see how you can have a leg vise on a screw which also touches the floor, it would drag.
If I have to hit something that hard, maybe a chisel, not sharpened properly, then I need some waterstones.

 

[samhay]

... but to have the leg just supported on a wooden thread and a stick with holes in it does seem a bit flimsy.

The clamping surface also provides a contact point (friction is almost as good as a fixing), so at least when you're clamping larger pieces of wood, it feels anything but flimsy.
The screws tend to be oversized too - mine's 28 mm diameter, I think.

 

[RobNichols]

where I saw the original discussion
https://workingbyhand.wordpress.com/2021/03/02/some-thoughts-on-roubos-bench/

link to the actual plates in the book
Plate 11
https://archive.org/details/gri_33125009321916/page/n31/mode/2up

Plate 279
https://archive.org/details/gri_33125009321973/page/n809/mode/2up

Love the details of the tail vice in Plate 279 ..... but how about that sliding vice in the middle of the workbench. I've seen a sliding deadman in that position a lot, but not a sliding vice!

 

[Cabinetman]

This is an interesting one as well

https://hovartercustomvise.com/product/the-cheetah-leg-vise

Yes it’s interesting and not expensive as things for vices go. But I think it would leave a lot of bruises!
As said I’m sticking with my Record 53 on my new bench. Wip to follow.

 

[mudman]

If the leg vice goes all the way to the floor, then there is the problem, in the variants shown, where the bottom of the front jaw will drag on the floor as it moves. I think this would be impractical and with uneven floors, maybe impossible to use. Also, get a few wood chips or shavings in front of the bench and the leg will soon jam. It has been stated that the reason for the front jaw to go all the way to the floor is to withstand the forces from heavy mallet wielding work. If this is the case, why do the more prevalent (at least in more recent times) vices that make no pretense of extended leg impersonation not get knocked off the bench?
The blacksmith's vices mentioned do extend to the floor, but a quick google will reveal that it was the rear jaw supported in this way, the front jaw attaches to the rear support by a pivot.

 

[Jacob]

If the leg vice goes all the way to the floor, then there is the problem, in the variants shown, where the bottom of the front jaw will drag on the floor as it moves. I think this would be impractical and with uneven floors, maybe impossible to use. Also, get a few wood chips or shavings in front of the bench and the leg will soon jam.

Dunno sounds like over thinking to me!
If I wanted a Roubo leg vice I'd definitely go for the Mk 1 simple model and see how it went. Just packing pieces to set the bottom out, much simpler than the various alternative devices for the legless pattern. Most of the time in use it stays on one position anyway.

It has been stated that the reason for the front jaw to go all the way to the floor is to withstand the forces from heavy mallet wielding work.

Not "stated", more "surmised"

If this is the case, why do the more prevalent (at least in more recent times) vices that make no pretense of extended leg impersonation not get knocked off the bench?

Because people with lighter vice restrain their heavy handed malletting? The extra length also gives extra capacity for wide boards and added stability for heavy pieces for instance

The blacksmith's vices mentioned do extend to the floor, but a quick google will reveal that it was the rear jaw supported in this way, the front jaw attaches to the rear support by a pivot.

Serves same purpose functionally, just a different design for different sort of work.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

A few simplistic points from one who has little experience:

• it is plausible that a vice on which at least one leg goes directly to the floor will be capable of absorbing maximum mallet impacts
• if neither jaw sits on the floor but are fixed to the base workbench, impact capacity may be compromised by the way in which the leg vice is attached to the existing structure
• maximum clamping pressure is achieved when the two jaw faces are parallel. With a curved moving jaw, clamping pressure will be applied only where the arc of the curved jaw contacts the workpiece.
• a better solution may be for the top moving jaw to be pivoted horizontally on the moving leg to ensure maximum parallel contact
• the size of workpiece held vertically is limited by the screw - if held offset there is a risk of racking. Thus I assume the purpose of the leg vice is to clamp with maximum pressure, not enable clamping of the largest workpiece.
• I can understand why a leg vice may be helpful in blacksmithing where the material is anyway heavier and the impacts needed to work it much higher than for wood.
• I am uncertain what practical benefits come from a leg vice used in woodworking - is it a legacy of a time when in blacksmiths and foundries there was a need to work wood where it avoided the expense and space required from a separate woodworking bench

 

[RobNichols]

If the leg vice goes all the way to the floor, then there is the problem, in the variants shown, where the bottom of the front jaw will drag on the floor as it moves. I think this would be impractical and with uneven floors, maybe impossible to use. Also, get a few wood chips or shavings in front of the bench and the leg will soon jam. It has been stated that the reason for the front jaw to go all the way to the floor is to withstand the forces from heavy mallet wielding work. If this is the case, why do the more prevalent (at least in more recent times) vices that make no pretense of extended leg impersonation not get knocked off the bench?
The blacksmith's vices mentioned do extend to the floor, but a quick google will reveal that it was the rear jaw supported in this way, the front jaw attaches to the rear support by a pivot.

My leg vice goes all the way to the floor. To be honest, I need to trim it, but the fact that it's one of those jobs that hasn't got done, shows that it's not really a problem. It does drag a little, and I do need to give it an occasional kick, but it's not the end of the world.

I'd also recommend watching Jay Bates' video of how he uses a wedge on the floor between the bottom of his vice and the leg to maintain parallel.

 

[mudman]

Dunno sounds like over thinking to me!
If I wanted a Roubo leg vice I'd definitely go for the Mk 1 simple model and see how it went. Just packing pieces to set the bottom out, much simpler than the various alternative devices for the legless pattern. Most of the time in use it stays on one position anyway.

Not "stated", more "surmised"

Because people with lighter vice restrain their heavy handed malletting? The extra length also gives extra capacity for wide boards and added stability for heavy pieces for instance

Serves same purpose functionally, just a different design for different sort of work.

Dunno sounds like over thinking to me!

Your usual response to any reply. What would be the right level of thinking? Is underthinking a thing? Perhaps not accounting for the things that can go wrong would be underthinking.

Not "stated", more "surmised"

Ah, so you don't actually know. Although you did make what looked pretty much what I would call a statement followed up with the usual rude stuff about design mistakes.
I'll probably get accused of overthinking but any mallet blows should be impacting the the work piece. If you are hitting your vice, then maybe you need to get a bit more practice with a mallet or a new pair of glasses. Heavy blows are going to move the workpiece before the vice breaks.

The blacksmith's vice is designed for a different purpose and that is shown in the design with the support leg that will transfer the forces directly to the floor, being at the back.

 

[mudman]

My leg vice goes all the way to the floor. To be honest, I need to trim it, but the fact that it's one of those jobs that hasn't got done, shows that it's not really a problem. It does drag a little, and I do need to give it an occasional kick, but it's not the end of the world.

I'd also recommend watching Jay Bates' video of how he uses a wedge on the floor between the bottom of his vice and the leg to maintain parallel.

Interesting video Rob.
I did notice though that the chap does keep a gap under the leg vice.
Doing a quick search, yours is the only one I have managed to find that contacts the ground. It probably isn't a major problem but wouldn't work for me with my floor.
I am only surmising though as I have never used one or intend to ever make one of this style.

 

[Jacob]

....

• I am uncertain what practical benefits come from a leg vice used in woodworking - is it a legacy of a time when in blacksmiths and foundries there was a need to work wood where it avoided the expense and space required from a separate woodworking bench

No advantage but the cast iron varieties would have been relatively expensive, as were metal planes at first.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'll probably get accused of overthinking but any mallet blows should be impacting the the work piece. If you are hitting your vice, then maybe you need to get a bit more practice with a mallet or a new pair of glasses. Heavy blows are going to move the workpiece before the vice breaks.

Or maybe the work should be on the bench over the leg and not in the vice in the first place?

 

[mudman]

Or maybe the work should be on the bench over the leg and not in the vice in the first place?

That's what I think but that might have been underthinking it.

 

[HOJ]

For those of a sensitive nature and too focused on form rather than function, best you look away, I have a 'non leg' vice on my old bench I made in the early 90's, still in use, it neither touches the floor or is actually in the leg either, but it serves me very well and has never been beaten...I do all of that on the bench top.


It has a guide rail with offset holes in the bottom, a steel pin to lock it, runs smoothly and is no big deal to set it to suit the stock.