Lots of hot air

[Jacob]

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...to-use-electricity-transformers-to-heat-homesSaw this today.
I thought it was interesting, despite being in the commie Grauniad...

2004: http://www.communityplanning.net/pub-film/pdf/CommunityHeating.pdf has been on the cards for a long time and a very good idea too, but isn't very fashionable. It's not high tech and whizzy enough and smacks of nanny state*. They'd rather look at high speed trains, EV replacements for Mercedes and BMWs, nuclear power, etc. Also the word "community" crops up a lot and that's a bit of a red rag for the nutters/libertarians. They think it has something to do with communism. Well it does actually but don't tell them, they'll just get over excited.
* see what I did there - dog whistling old etonians, "nanny" and "smacks" in the same sentence!

 

[John Brown]

2004: http://www.communityplanning.net/pub-film/pdf/CommunityHeating.pdf has been on the cards for a long time and a very good idea too, but isn't very fashionable. It's not high tech and whizzy enough and smacks of nanny state*. They'd rather look at high speed trains, EV replacements for Mercedes and BMWs, nuclear power, etc. Also the word "community" crops up a lot and that's a bit of a red rag for the nutters/libertarians. They think it has something to do with communism. Well it does actually but don't tell them, they'll just get over excited.
* see what I did there - dog whistling old etonians, "nanny" and "smacks" in the same sentence!

Yes, I know community heating is old h(e)at, but this is the first time I've seen it mentioned in regard to electrical transformer stations.

 

[Jacob]

Yes, I know community heating is old h(e)at, but this is the first time I've seen it mentioned in regard to electrical transformer stations.

It's a good idea. What about crematoria?

 

[MorrisWoodman12]

I saw this recently just to add to the viability of electric vehicles and to inflame the argument:
Total fuel consumption of U.S. airlines is approximately 19 billion gallons annually.
Total fuel consumption for mining Ore for construction of electric car batteries is approximately 21 billion gallons annually.
The 21 billion gallons of fuel burned can only produce enough Ore to build 250,000 electric car batteries.
The lifespan of an electric battery is 10 years and is not renewable. By 2050 these batteries will fill landfills with 50 million pounds of waste that does not break down.
I wonder if people would still believe in electric power cars, vehicles or equipment if they knew how massive the carbon emissions footprint really was?
So that you understand, more energy is used to mine for these batteries than they will ever produce.

 

[John Brown]

I saw this recently just to add to the viability of electric vehicles and to inflame the argument:
Total fuel consumption of U.S. airlines is approximately 19 billion gallons annually.
Total fuel consumption for mining Ore for construction of electric car batteries is approximately 21 billion gallons annually.
The 21 billion gallons of fuel burned can only produce enough Ore to build 250,000 electric car batteries.
The lifespan of an electric battery is 10 years and is not renewable. By 2050 these batteries will fill landfills with 50 million pounds of waste that does not break down.
I wonder if people would still believe in electric power cars, vehicles or equipment if they knew how massive the carbon emissions footprint really was?
So that you understand, more energy is used to mine for these batteries than they will ever produce.

Just to be clear, Lithium cells don't really produce energy, they only store it.
Where did you recently see this, by the way, just out of curiosity?

 

[John Brown]

I saw this recently just to add to the viability of electric vehicles and to inflame the argument:
Total fuel consumption of U.S. airlines is approximately 19 billion gallons annually.
Total fuel consumption for mining Ore for construction of electric car batteries is approximately 21 billion gallons annually.
The 21 billion gallons of fuel burned can only produce enough Ore to build 250,000 electric car batteries.
The lifespan of an electric battery is 10 years and is not renewable. By 2050 these batteries will fill landfills with 50 million pounds of waste that does not break down.
I wonder if people would still believe in electric power cars, vehicles or equipment if they knew how massive the carbon emissions footprint really was?
So that you understand, more energy is used to mine for these batteries than they will ever produce.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51977625

 

[Blackswanwood]

I see Maersk have today announced they are buying eight new container ships which will run on methanol as they move to decarbonise their operations. A small step given the size of their overall fleet but perhaps a sign of things to come.

 

[whereistheceilidh]

I see Maersk have today announced they are buying eight new container ships which will run on methanol as they move to decarbonise their operations. A small step given the size of their overall fleet but perhaps a sign of things to come.

Not too sure how environmentally friendly that is ..... but it is certainly not that new...... a number of folk in the Highlands have been running on ethanol for years.....

 

[Daniel2]

It's a good idea. What about crematoria?

To run the heating ?

 

[Thingybob]

There are several ways to change behaviours to achieve reduced consumption of fossil fuels. If you think all is OK so why bother - don't waste time reading the rest of this post.

Legislation limiting consumption - eg: gas central heating boilers, EV and ICE banned from 2030. This can work if alternative technologies allow a fairly smooth transition. Measures need to be easily enforcable. Will not change all behaviours.

Allow the market to decide when/if it actually becomes a problem - the less able will be driven into poverty or worse. Wealthy and educated will survive relatively unscathed. Risk of chaos and societal meltdown, needs active police or military enforcement.

Possible solution - tax carbon consumption, not income. Will make consumers rethink their own spending and priorites. Assume a very average income of £30k pa, £1000 domestic energy and 12000 miles pa in a small car. Other VAT etc unchanged:

• current total tax bill is income tax £3500, NI £2450, VAT on household energy £50, VAT and duty on fuel £900 = total £6900
• reduce income tax rate fom 20% to 10%. Increase personal allowance to £15k. Halve national insurance, increase VAT on domestic energy to 100%, increase fuel duty and VAT to £2700 = total £6700.

Detail needs refinement - eg: tax imported goods on their embedded energy. Individual groups may get vocal about different elements - low paid and domestic energy costs, trades needing vans/transport etc. Changes to be phased over say 10 years as a consistent policy.

The main message is that without burdening people with more tax (generally) their behaviours would change markedly. Suddenly home insulation and efficiency would be important and worth investment. Small cars and less driving for non-essential purposes would preferred.

Those staying ahead of the environmental game would benefit with more disposable income and a tax regime encouraging "green" activities. Those who don't care or won't change will be penalised - tough isn't it!!

Like your thinking Terry , Ever thought of a future in politics we could do with people like you

 

[Jacob]

To run the heating ?

Well yes I wasn't thinking of the cooking.

 

[Thingybob]

Wars and rationing are not a good analogue for the climate change challenge.

WW2 was a case of an immediate and real threat. National full and immediate cooperation was the only realistic defence.

Covid had some of these characteristics - immediate, threatening and sufficient to get substantial compliance with lockdown measures - a largely cooperative response.

Climate change is a long tem threat. If no action is taken to limit emissions or take action to mitigate for 10-20 years it will make no difference to the next 10-20 years. We could not put heads in the sand facing an imminent Nazi invasion threat, but we can with climate change.

The response to climate change need not be immediate, but actions today do need to be part of a coherent strategy and plan running for the next 20 years.

If we wait until the threat becomes unavoidable, it will be too late for cooperative action. Those who can will build walls to keep the rabble out.

The cause of the WW2 was warned about many years before 1939 but the world ignored it till it was thrust upon them as with global warming "that jumped up Austrian corporal is no threat " sounds familar

 

[hairy]

Some figures for different approaches

 

[Noel]

Anybody want to get a shout in before closing time?

I was going to close this thread for the usual reasons then it went back to the topic in hand. But now back to party politics.
Why ruin an interesting (at times) thread?
11 posts deleted.

 

[woodieallen]

Some figures for different approaches

Sorry...watched it. Too many assumptions to be credible.

 

[Chippyjoe]

I was going to close this thread for the usual reasons then it went back to the topic in hand. But now back to party politics.
Why ruin an interesting (at times) thread?
11 posts deleted.

"Why ruin an interesting thread"

Because as is usual with this forum, there are one or two BBB's who will not accept anyone else's opinion if it differs from theirs.

 

[Thingybob]

Just imagine if all you guys were to put forward ideas to generate power worked togeather building prototypes i think we could solve some of the problems we are going to face in the future it only takes a conserted effort when we are faced with a shortage of things personaly we soon think of ways to compensate just got to learn to share our ideas instead of greed taking over Just an idea

 

[Cooper]

Just imagine if all you guys were to put forward ideas to generate power worked togeather building prototypes i think we could solve some of the problems we are going to face in the future it only takes a conserted effort when we are faced with a shortage of things personaly we soon think of ways to compensate just got to learn to share our ideas instead of greed taking over Just an idea

I completely agree. The news at the moment, about almost everything, is is either crying over spilled milk or shutting the stable door etc. This forum has such a range of talents and experience. I'm sure instead of the almost inevitable "change can't work", practical solutions to make the world a better and sustainable place should dominate the conversation. We need all of us, on the left, right and centre, to be actively doing what we can.
Martin

 

[R1chard]

As an installer we always recommend three things before looking at renewable technologies...
1. Insulate
2. Insulate
3. Insulate
Once you reduce your losses you can then look at an air source heat pump. The lower the losses the lower the temp of the water required to space heat and the lower the running cost.

 

[Valhalla]

I see Maersk have today announced they are buying eight new container ships which will run on methanol as they move to decarbonise their operations. A small step given the size of their overall fleet but perhaps a sign of things to come.

If the shipping industry wants to get to net zero in a hurry - bring back the oar and a drum beat.......