looking for guidance on re-sawing with a tablesaw

[Eric The Viking]

How big a board are we talking here?

Dare I mention that people (including me!) used to use hand saws for this task?

Of course a bandsaw is loads better - I have one, now - but a handsaw is safe and, if sharp, not all that hard work. You just grit your teeth and get on with it. By the time you've rigged up something and checked your life insurance policy, etc. you'd have had it done and dusted. How often are you going to want/need to do it? And can't John Boddy's rip it for you? They almost certainly have a small bandsaw (by sawmil measures).

By the way, here's why you should always use a short fence for ripping (around 20" in). https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=sZPOarBVxSk
He's got a riving knife, and you can watch it almost happening. It's a bit like that old b+w footage of the car on the resonating suspension bridge where you just know something nasty's gonna happen. His jig looks interesting, but I haven't watched the whole thing through yet.

 

[n0legs]

Nothing wrong with that, 20 years ago nobody would of said anything was wrong with.

That's very true.

I suppose the problem we have today is we get in equal numbers a lot of info ( YouTube, forums etc ) on how to do things and then the exact opposite ie, what can and does go wrong.

What a lot of people forget is a lot of what is out there is taken as gospel and to be honest it isn't.
What works for some may not work for others. Some people due to vast experience and education are happy to carry out operations that make others cringe.
A good way to go would be to ask anyone who gives advice what their credentials are and then we could better decide if we want to follow that persons advice. But let's remember advice is not education.

With regards to the question of re-sawing with a table saw, I have been shown a method that is used by a local joinery shop by someone I have known a long long time who has all the formal education we lack, he is someone I trust and respect.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong but it works. It is safe, the blade is guarded and the riving knife is fitted and when I watched and when I've had a go kick back does not seem to be an issue either. Some common sense guidance is employed and the cut is made successfully.

 

[Scottdimelow]

I think we all need to assess the situation, make sure we feel comfortable and crack on.

Some people just love telling people what to do I think, and then the safety officer was invented

 

[blackrodd]

I think we all need to assess the situation, make sure we feel comfortable and crack on.

Some people just love telling people what to do I think, and then the safety officer was invented

Some one, somewhere said that people need protecting from themselves.
I think you will find all was well under the safety officer.
This was where square blocks were banned and guarding and many other safety issues were enforced under various factory acts all before the 70's
The newer health and safety office where the operator is not taught to assess work related safety issues, and is not made to be responsible for his own actions.
Looking at the well known safety film in which the "alleged victim" complains that " I was given the wrong ladder"
says it all.
With that attitude, I would say he was a certain danger to himself and all those around him in the workplace.
Regards Rodders

 

[Eric The Viking]

I think we all need to assess the situation, make sure we feel comfortable and crack on.

Some people just love telling people what to do I think, and then the safety officer was invented

Some one, somewhere said that people need protecting from themselves.
I think you will find all was well under the safety officer.
This was where square blocks were banned and guarding and many other safety issues were enforced under various factory acts all before the 70's
The newer health and safety office where the operator is not taught to assess work related safety issues, and is not made to be responsible for his own actions.
Looking at the well known safety film in which the "alleged victim" complains that " I was given the wrong ladder"
says it all.
With that attitude, I would say he was a certain danger to himself and all those around him in the workplace.
Regards Rodders

Absolutely. Just been reading some American Time Life woodworking books with some quite scarily dodgy tablesaw techniques in them. The daft thing is that most of the processes could have been easily done with hand tools and wouldn't have been at all dangerous that way. And even if you did do what they suggested (involving lots of finger boards etc.), by the time you'd set up the saw table the manual-equivalent job would have been long finished.
. . .
Early 1960s, I was quite small, about five or six. We were staying at my grandparents (mum's dad). Grandpa came up from the mill after work, but things weren't normal. The adults were talking in hushed tones and with serious faces. I asked mum about it. Before thinking, she answered me, then immediately realised she probably shouldn't have.

One of the mill staff had lost a hand in one of the planers.

I can't imagine how it happened, and I don't know if it was literally that bad, but that's what she said. I have never forgotten the incident, fifty years ago now. Nor has she.

They were big Wadkins, incidentally, over & under, a pair of them side by side (16" at a guess). they made a hellish noise, and whilst I used to love watching Grandpa drive the big bandsaw cutting boards from treetrunks, I'd run right out of the mill yard whenever the planers started up (they were near the doors). Same with the Wadkin radial, but the planers were worst.

How anyone would be stupid enough I can't imagine, but even if one planer was working on its own you'd have to lip-read. It's possible someone misunderstood someone else and pushed a button - I have no idea at this distance in time.

But there's no doubt It needn't have happened.

 

[Tim_H]

On a similar note B&Q no longer cut small length timber for customers after one of their staff lost a hand on their big panel saws last year. Depending on the person you get they will get out a hand saw!

 

[JanetsBears]

I'm not sure of the level of skill of some of the staff at B&Q, and I'm not sure if the particular member of staff who was at the panel saw when my brother-in-law got there was just taking the micky, but this actually happened...

Sister sent brother-in-law to B&Q for a piece of plywood to blank off a small window in their garage. She told him to get them to cut it to size, 40cm x 60cm. Brother-in-law asked panel saw operator to cut it to that size, at which point the operator said "I need to have the measurements in millimetres". As if that wasn't bad enough, my brother-in-law went home without the wood, intending to return when he'd got the measurement in millimetres! Needless to say, my sister wasn't impressed!

Back to the original question, the first issue is that the TS200's riving knife can't be adjusted so it's below the height of the blade without re-shaping it if it's anything like its bigger brother, the TS250. I have a TS250-2 and have reshaped my riving knife and discarded the guard as most of the stuff I do is fairly small and done in sleds or jigs with suitable guards, and I specifically want to be able to perform non-through cuts.

The second issue in my mind is the thickness of the wood that you're trying to re-saw. I don't think anyone would have a problem with somebody ripping a piece of 3"x3" length of wood into 2 pieces just less than 1.5"x3". There will be some people who wouldn't like the thought of ripping a piece of 4"x4" length by cutting part way through then flipping it over and cutting from the other side, but plenty of people who would find that acceptable because the (almost) 2" either side of the blade will allow the pieces to remain upright and stable with very little effort. How many would like to rip a 0.25"x4" length to create two 1/16th thick pieces though? Not many I suspect, because without something to hold it securely, there's a big risk of it being thrown back at the operator.

I ripped some 1"x5" oak last night to create two thinner 5" boards, but I rechecked my saw and fence's alignment thoroughly before starting and only cut about 0.5" per pass, increasing the blade height each time, and using a wide push stick. It was very stable and produced no burning.

In summary, think carefully before you start about what might go wrong, then guard against it. Don't try to push your equipment to its limits and don't push yourself beyond your own limits and stay safe!

Chris

 

[woodfarmer]

I couldn,t agree more with Steve I use hand held circ saws alot and they dont like to cut the full depth of the blade for a small cut let alone a long rip
and please belive me a kick back with a saw you have in your hands is not a pleasant thing.Be safe and wait for your workshop extension and bandsaw

Geordie

Especially when you are lying upside down between the centre keel and side keel of a boat and it is just an inch or two from your face

 

[RobinBHM]

I think we all need to assess the situation, make sure we feel comfortable and crack on.

Some people just love telling people what to do I think, and then the safety officer was invented

Some one, somewhere said that people need protecting from themselves.
I think you will find all was well under the safety officer.
This was where square blocks were banned and guarding and many other safety issues were enforced under various factory acts all before the 70's
The newer health and safety office where the operator is not taught to assess work related safety issues, and is not made to be responsible for his own actions.
Looking at the well known safety film in which the "alleged victim" complains that " I was given the wrong ladder"
says it all.
With that attitude, I would say he was a certain danger to himself and all those around him in the workplace.
Regards Rodders

Absolutely. Just been reading some American Time Life woodworking books with some quite scarily dodgy tablesaw techniques in them. The daft thing is that most of the processes could have been easily done with hand tools and wouldn't have been at all dangerous that way. And even if you did do what they suggested (involving lots of finger boards etc.), by the time you'd set up the saw table the manual-equivalent job would have been long finished.
. . .
Early 1960s, I was quite small, about five or six. We were staying at my grandparents (mum's dad). Grandpa came up from the mill after work, but things weren't normal. The adults were talking in hushed tones and with serious faces. I asked mum about it. Before thinking, she answered me, then immediately realised she probably shouldn't have.

One of the mill staff had lost a hand in one of the planers.

I can't imagine how it happened, and I don't know if it was literally that bad, but that's what she said. I have never forgotten the incident, fifty years ago now. Nor has she.

They were big Wadkins, incidentally, over & under, a pair of them side by side (16" at a guess). they made a hellish noise, and whilst I used to love watching Grandpa drive the big bandsaw cutting boards from treetrunks, I'd run right out of the mill yard whenever the planers started up (they were near the doors). Same with the Wadkin radial, but the planers were worst.

How anyone would be stupid enough I can't imagine, but even if one planer was working on its own you'd have to lip-read. It's possible someone misunderstood someone else and pushed a button - I have no idea at this distance in time.

But there's no doubt It needn't have happened.

The terrible injury and noise tells me it was almost certainly a planer with square blocks. Modern circular blocks cause very little air movement and are hence so much quieter.

 

[Job and Knock]

Nothing wrong with that, 20 years ago nobody would of said anything was wrong with.

Try 40 years ago, more like, and even then not everybody would have agreed. The design of rip fences changed back in the mid-1970s and we were being taught about using short rip fences and having the crown guards in place well before that at college. Full blown rip saws, of course, had short fences as far back as WWI. The short rip fence, high-low fence plates and crown guard always on became more or less standard on industrial kit after the 1974 Woodworking Regs came into force. Please check your facts before making throw-away comments.

I think we all need to assess the situation, make sure we feel comfortable and crack on.
Some people just love telling people what to do I think, and then the safety officer was invented

The first time you have to deal with an amputation or a near amputation you might well change your tune. As a First Aider I've actually had three in twenty or so years. Oddly they were all the same story - site rip saw, no guard, no riving knife and a supposedly experienced carpenter. The practice of "deeping" (i.e. ripping half depth one side, fliipping the timber and completing the cut from the other face) is still widely practiced on sites, although very much frowned upon because it has a bad accident history. Some site managers won't permit rip saws for this reason. Others hire-in a 9-1/2in portable rip saw to circumvent the need.

If anyone does feel the urge to do their own "deeping" then please consider the need for a riving knife, run-off support, push sticks and an overhead guard of some form. There's quite a good design for a home made one on Badger Pond (an American site, no less), although the removal of the riving knife is typically American and in my eyes a bit dumb. But then I tend to watch American videos with my toes curled up. So many people trying for a Darwin Award

 

[Job and Knock]

The terrible injury and noise tells me it was almost certainly a planer with square blocks. Modern circular blocks cause very little air movement and are hence so much quieter.

I think I'd have to agree, although square blocks on planers were banned on new kit as long ago as the 1930s and fortunately disappeared on new panel planers (thicknessers) by the late 1960s. They had the advantage of being able to carry pairs or even multiple pairs of profile knives which allowed you to produce one-sided (planed finish face only) skirtings and the like very fast. These older thicknessers used to have holes drilled at either end of the tables to take register bars to keep your rough sawn timber in line with the cutters. And they were very noisy - not a high pitched sound, either, more like the drone of a Lancaster bomber

 

[stuartpaul]

I think we all need to assess the situation, make sure we feel comfortable and crack on.

Some people just love telling people what to do I think, and then the safety officer was invented

Only works if you actually know the risks involved in what your assessing! So many people on this site alone ask questions on practices that could be considered 'iffy' qnd thankfully they tend to be steered towards safer methods.

A+E departments get regular visits from people who thought they knew what they were doing!

Your second comment is almost insulting to a wide range of people who go out of their way to try and keep others out of harms way. And I don't give a stuff about the 'I've always done it this way and never had a problem' brigade. They're usually first in line for the no win no fee brigade!!!