Log burners.

[Digit]

Finally getting around to the installation. Now before anybody starts about the regs, I've spoken to two local installers and they ran!
It seems that my chimney was constructed by a left handed, one legged, Afghani jelly juggler!
So it's down to me!
The clay fire back is set back 5 inches, (125 mm) and the throat is restricted by a clay bar at the front that is angled at 45 degrees. This means that I will have to cut part of that away and/or the part of the back that slopes forward.
Beyond that there is no problem with space for a SS flue liner.
One installer proposed that a SS straight 90 degree flue pipe would reach in far enough if extended.
This worried me and I checked with a supplier and they agreed a 'no no' on the basis that fire starting could be difficult, proposing instead two 45 degree fittings, which at least makes sense.
Now, finally to my problem.
Flue liner suspended from cowl on top of the stack, no problem. What about the bottom where I convert from liner to SS or SE flue pipe? How do Support that lot?
Help!

Roy.

 

[Doug B]

Finally getting around to the installation. Now before anybody starts about the regs, I've spoken to two local installers and they ran!

Help!

Roy.

Hi Roy,

Please don`t take this the wrong way, but, by asking these questions on a public forum you are showing to the world you don`t know what to do. If you were to install this log burner & something went wrong, eg a house fire, your insurance would be invalid & you could end up with a building plot.

Why not direct these questions to your local building control officer, pay the appropriate fees, by all means do it your self, but at least have the peace of mind that the questions you have have been answered by some one in the know & that it has been signed of appropriately.

I appreciate solid fuel isn`t rocket science, but is it worth taking a chance on your home, even properly installed appliances can have chimney fires.

 

[Digit]

by asking these questions on a public forum you are showing to the world you don`t know what to do.

Which of course is why I'm asking!
I need someone who knows and I don't give a damn if it's official or unofficial. Time has demonstrated that someone on this forum would know how to knit fog!
As I haven't burnt the place down with the existing installation frankly I fail to understand how a log burner would achieve what an open fire has failed to do.
I would add that I have already installed one such device without problems, using a conventional SS duble skinned flue.

Roy.

 

[Doug B]

I completely understand what you are saying. But previously you didn`t need building regs, you do now.

As much as i don`t always agree with H&S & all that goes with it, it doesn`t change the fact that a fire, how ever unlikely, would result in your insurance being invalid.

Is your home not worth the few hundred pounds that it would cost to do the job legally, i imagine the cost of the fee would be a very small fraction of what your house is worth.

I have successfully installed hundreds of solid fuel appliances in the last 30 years, but i still wouldn`t take the chance of not registering an installation.

 

[Digit]

wouldn`t take the chance of not registering an installation.

You would if you our lot!
One. They build a round about, too narrow for large wagons to get round it, they widen it, forget to supply power for the lighting.
Two. Build another round about, subject of a fraud enquiry.
Three. Refus a lady planning permission due to access onto main road, 18 mnths later grant permission for householder next door whilst still refusing the first lady.
Four. Engage in building a 9 million pound hospital but forget to purchase access to sight.
Five. Arguing over dredging estuary, for the last 150 yrs.
Six. Refusing me planning consent as my house, 'lacks foundations!' (love to know how they work that out without digging!)
Seven. I applied for a tree preservation order, take 24 hrs they say. 5 yrs on I still wait!
Oh no. I stay well away now.

Roy.

 

[Richard T]

There were no such thing as flue liners when I put mine in. It's been fine without for ..er.. 24 years. .

 

[Digit]

I've already found out that they are not essential, depending on circumstances, but I've elected to go that route 'cos the existing flue suffers badly from down drafts due to surrounding trees etc.
This, along with the fact that the void has a considerable volume, leads me to believe that a narrower flue and anti down draft cowl should help.

Roy.

 

[henton49er]

Roy,

If you do not have your log burner installed and commissioned by a HETAS approved installer, your house insurance may be invalid in the event of a fire.

Mike

 

[Digit]

I can't find an installer who will do the job! I mentioned that earlier.
An example, I bought a Sky package, along comes installer, looks at the only timber dwelling he's ever seen and informs me that he can't install the dish on my house as the wind pressure on the dish might blow my house over.
I kid you not!

Roy.

 

[Tusses]

Dont you just love 'preachers' when you ask a question :roll:

I dont have a liner (so I'm not an expert), but the damper and stove pipe 'rest' on top of my log burner, sealed then with fire cement.

Would it not be a case of building up from your stove to meet the liner ?

You can get support brackets for the liner if it needs to be secure.

 

[Digit]

You can get support brackets for the liner if it needs to be secure.

That is exactly my problem.
Beyond the clay fire back is the normal sloping shelf and what I really need is some hints on how to support the junction between stove pipe and liner.
Mike has unfortunately fallen for the hype that surrounds many of the numerous regs the last lot foisted onto us.
There is no reg that I am aware of that forbids me installing any kind of heating in my home.

Roy.

 

[Richard T]

Digit wrote: "the existing flue suffers badly from down drafts due to surrounding trees etc."

Roy, what kind of fire did you have there previously to demonstrate this?

 

[Digit]

A standard 16 inch open hearth.

Roy.

 

[Richard T]

Hmmm... we don't have any trees tall enough to make a difference - not yet anyway, and the chimney stack is well above the roof apex and yet, when the wind is from the south we get downdraughts that rattle the doors. It's not a problem really though - just the odd puff of smoke from the odd southerly gust. Fortunately when the wind is from the north, it pulls like crazy.
I don't think you will have anything like the problem with a door - closable wood burner that you got with the open hearth. You'll be much warmer for less wood and effort too.

 

[Tusses]

Roy.

Have a look online at any stove and chimney supplier. They will have all sorts of brackets and adjuster/reducers etc etc.

Just looking at them, you should be able to work out what you need for your situation.

Dont forget to seal the liner to chimney opening at the bottom, to stop all your warm room air going up the chimney !

Rich

 

[Digit]

I have been doing just that Rich and today I'm visiting the library.
My stated aversion to Councils and experts may seem extreme, but boy have I suffered at their hands!
I designed and installed our LPG CH, there is plenty of info available, as with my log burner, it's finding it.
I calculated the boiler size, rad sizes, worked out pipe runs, studied the legalities of boiler installation and did the job.
I designed it so that in the event of a boiler failure the DHW could be isolated and the immersion heater circuit brought back into operation.
At that point I entered hospital for cancer surgery, previously having arranged for the installation to be checked and signed off by a local Corgi company.
They arrived the day after my return from hospital, studied my efforts, queried the boiler timer having been disconnected till they were shown the wireless timer/stat then queried the supply piping.
I'm sitting in an armchair, wrapped in blankets, unable even to stand, trying to explain the method that permits the use of the immersion heater.
The chap walks off muttering under his breath about never having seen anything like it etc, to return about an hour later to state, 'I've got it!'
And I'm paying this chap to sign it off!

Roy.

 

[henton49er]

Roy,

Approved Document J of The Building Regulations stipulates that any work that affects an existing chimney (ie fitting a new stove or liner) or creating a new chimney now comes under building control.

If you are relining your chimney whether that be with flexible liner, pumice, or concrete liners or if you are building a new chimney (including building a new chimney using twin wall insulated flue pipe) then this is classed as "Building work" and you must notify building control before work starts. In any case there may well be local planning restrictions convering chimney work and new chimneys that you have to follow. Such work has to be done under the guidance of a building inspector or by an installer who is a member of a "Competant Person Scheme".

Various companies and organisations offer a "Competent Person Scheme" course or accreditation for the installation of stoves and flue/chimney. These include:

APHC (Association of Plumbing and Heating Contractors)
Building Engineering Services Competence Accreditation (BESCA Limited)
HETAS Ltd (Heating Equipment Testing and Approval Scheme)
NAPIT Registration Ltd
NICEIC Group Ltd

I could go on; I was only trying to point out that it is very easy to fall foul of Regulations and thus potentially invalidate any insurance cover that people might have. I have not "fallen for the hype" as you so bluntly put it; I just happen to be aware of the correct procedures to follow to ensure safe installation, and was trying to be helpful.

Mike

 

[Digit]

Mike, I apologise if I offended, not intended.

under the guidance of a building inspector or by an installer who is a member of a "Competant Person Scheme".

That is correct, at no point does it state that I cannot do the job myself, does it?

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDgQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.navitron.org.uk%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D11249.0%3Bwap2&rct=j&q=HETAS%20Competant%20person%20scheme&ei=5PMWTojdL4y0hAfykdTMBQ&usg=AFQjCNGVQ8x0TfrGUwc5uepVdLuiYqBA_w&cad=rja

I went through this with central heating and recently on double glazing.

Roy.

 

[hanser]

Digit

A bit difficult to advise without a piccie of the hearth - when I installed one ( pre regs) I ended up knocking the old clay fireback out. Far easier than maccling the connection to the fireback and allowed a straight up connection from the stove to the chimney I cleaned up and repointed the brickwork (square inset) and its a nice feature. I then closed off the open chimney space with a made in situ concrete plinth with a spigot for the flue connection and a firedoor so that I can sweep the chimney etc. You may be able to adapt something similar for your install. Its not rocket science.
A few hints:

- make sure that you can sweep the chimney. Some stoves can be swept through the firedoor, some can't. If you got a 45 deg bends etc you may struggle. Some elbows have a rodding plate.
- chimney liners don't last forever - you need the facility to renew it.
- do put a cowl on the pot. A fair bit of rain can come down a pot. Its absorbed in a trad chimney, but will run down a liner and into your stove. Not an issue when it burning, but a rusty tarry mess when it isn't. And eventually it drips onto the hearth etc. And of course you are in Wales :lol:

 

[Digit]

Cheers hanser. Whilst I understand posters concerns about the regs the problem I am facing is the construction.
If I do the job under the guidance of a BCO, as permitted he will stymied! This chimney is like no other, i know 'cos I designed it!
No pics etc so I'll describe it.
Imagine a block structure 4 ft wide, 3 ft high and 2 ft front to rear. Inserted in the front is a conventional 16 inch fire back. On top of this structure is a cast and reinforced concrete slab with a 10 dia hole in it.
Built on top of the slab is a brick flue that passes through the roof. Standing in front of the breast the block structure continues upwards to produce a breast of the same dimnesions as the base, so looking at it from the front it appears as a perfectly normal chimney breast.
But if you pass around to the rear, which is the hallway, what you see is a mirror on the back of the flue and a cupboard door to left and right.
One cupbord houses the DHW tank and the other is a small airing cupboard.
Like I said, like no other!
Now all a BCO can tell me is that if I wish to insert a stove, which means cutting most of the front away I will need to supprt the slab till I have arranged additional supports, what he can't tell me, and I can't remember as I didn't build it, is the length and width of the slab!
So I have had a lovely week end cutting holes in the front to ascertain those dimensions, lucky me!
There will be no flue bends, straight through the hole with a converter from flexi liner to stove pipe, but thank you for your kind offer.

Roy.