LN BU Jack

[paulm]

My new plane arrived from Tilgear earlier this week and just had a chance to have a proper play with it today.

Tested the flatness of the sole using the new straightedge I had ordered at the same time, expecting to feel suitably satisfied at how good the plane was "straight out of the box", but lots of daylight in lots of places along the length of the sole :shock:

First thought was that maybe I hadn't got a decent straightedge but tested my Stanley No5 that I had flattened myself a while ago and it seemed perfect by comparison, much to my surprise

What kind of condition have others found the soles of their LN planes to be in from new ? Have they needed much, or any work, to get them flatter ?

Haven't got round to measuring the gaps yet and mapping out where abouts they are on the length of the sole so I know I am bieng a bit vague at the moment.

Will try some marker pen on the sole and rubbing it along some 240 grit on some mdf tomorrow and get a better idea of where the highs and lows are, but have to say I'm pretty dissapointed as it looks like I have a fair bit of work to do to get it too the kind of state I expected

Hadn't thought to check my LN BU Smoother but will do that tomorrow as well for comparison as I now have the straightedge to do that with.

Cheers, Paul.

 

[MooreToolsPlease]

If it isnt perfect out of the box, im sure LN will gladly send a replacement for you!
In my opinion, any plane commanding that price, whilst very justified, should be perfect out of the box

 

[Paul Kierstead]

I'd try planing with it first; that would seem to be the most important performance measure.

 

[David C]

Chisel,

What straightedge are you using please?

L-N tolerance should be quoted on his site.

I think I am right in saying there should be no error of more than 0.0015".

David

 

[Alf]

Yep, 0.0015". Speaking as someone who's been thoroughly caught out on this, and in public - daylight can be seen through incredibly small "gaps". Like Paul, I'd use it and if it didn't work then start worring about it, but on the other hand it's not a cheap tool and you're entitled to expect to be happy with it, although if it is within spec getting a better one woud be a matter of luck. It may conceivably be "worse".

Cheers, Alf

 

[paulm]

Hi David,

Using the Kinex 500mm straightedge from Tilgear (page 5 of their catalogue).

It does say they are not intended for high precision engineering use, but also says they are suitable, ideal even, for checking flatness of timber, machine tables etc.

Would have suspected the straightedge were it not for the Stanley No5 bieng spot on when tested in the same way.

Will check properly tomorrow with feeler gauges and see if the plane sole is within tolerance, but it will still be approx as I don't have a surfacing plate to be absolutely precise.

If it's not within tolerance then minded to remedy it myself rather than send it back as I don't have the big packing carton with the padding, and have already honed the blade and rounded the corners, and have smoothed the underside of the leading edge of the chipbreaker (though I suspect this probably isn't so necessary on the bevelup planes ?).

Does depend on the extent and placement of the high areas though, if it looks too much work I'm minded to send it back anyway on principle.

Is there any way to check the straightedge without a known perfect reference surface ? I guess not, but perhaps if I checked a number of machine tables and found similar patterns of highs and lows on each it might suggest a poor straightedge, but then the Stanley looks okay.......

Will probably seem clearer tomorrow with a fresh pair of eyes !

Cheers, Paul.

 

[David C]

Paul,

There are no tolerances quoted on those straightedges and I would be very suspicious of the accuracy.

There may or may not be a problem with your plane but a precision st edge will be needed to check it.

Fancy a trip to North Devon?

David

 

[paulm]

Paul,

Fancy a trip to North Devon?

David

Certainly do David !

Would be over like a shot, only just checked on my route planner and it's 175 miles 3 and 3/4 hours, each way !!! :shock:

I'm in enough trouble with SWMBO as it is with spending too much money on "toys" and hiding in the workshop all day, not sure I would get away with a mega day trip to Devon to check whether said toy was actually one and a half thou out rather than two thou :lol:

Might just be final confirmation of her suspicions that spending all this time on the net on strange forums is making me slightly unhinged and obsessive :shock: :lol:

Thanks for the offer though David, much appreciated. Don't suppose you know of any other master craftsmen of international reknown with a straightedge and a couple of hours to spare closer to the M3 by any chance ? :-k :lol:

Cheers, Paul

 

[Anonymous]

What kind of condition have others found the soles of their LN planes to be in from new ? Have they needed much, or any work, to get them flatte

Hi Chisel

I have never had to flatten a LN plane sole and I have quite a few. Always bang on straight form the box. Contact Tom LN

I test them against our work's (expensive :shock: ) Moore & Wright grade B straight edge which is guaranteed flatness of straight edge of within 0.00024"

Watch out for cheaper "straight edges" like the rubbish Axminster sells, often they ain't!!!

 

[MikeW]

Paul,
Fancy a trip to North Devon?
David

Certainly do David !

Would be over like a shot, only just checked on my route planner and it's 175 miles 3 and 3/4 hours, each way !!! :shock:
...

Oh man. I would have started driving already! Actually. If I took off without my wife, she'd hang me for not taking her, too!

But a road trip isn't always convenient.

Like DC and the rest say, the straightedge may be suspect. I would probably use a LN or Veritas plane to check a common straightedge before the other way around.

It is possible it is out of spec. But without using a known, in-spec precision straightedge, you'll never know.

The simpliest thing is as Alf and Paul said--use it, but also correspond with LN directly. Ask their advice.

Take care, Mike

 

[MarcW]

Paul,

Fancy a trip to North Devon?

David

Certainly do David !

Would be over like a shot, only just checked on my route planner and it's 175 miles 3 and 3/4 hours, each way !!! :shock:

I'm in enough trouble with SWMBO as it is with spending too much money on "toys" and hiding in the workshop all day, not sure I would get away with a mega day trip to Devon to check whether said toy was actually one and a half thou out rather than two thou :lol:

Might just be final confirmation of her suspicions that spending all this time on the net on strange forums is making me slightly unhinged and obsessive :shock: :lol:

Thanks for the offer though David, much appreciated. Don't suppose you know of any other master craftsmen of international reknown with a straightedge and a couple of hours to spare closer to the M3 by any chance ? :-k :lol:

Cheers, Paul

Paul,

You have an invitation from David and merely 175 miles on the road. Lucky guy, what are you waiting for?

Marc

 

[Chris Knight]

Paul,
I bought one of those (straightedges) from Tilgear. It was shaped like the proverbial banana I am afraid - a real waste of money. (Discovered too late to take it back)

 

[woodbloke]

I use a Maun steel 2' straight edge accurate, so it says on the blade to .01% tol, so that's 0.061mm. Any use?... tho' probably not I suspect you need something more accurate...... slightly nearer to you than DC tho' - Rob

 

[paulm]

Curious. Think Alf might have got it spot on in her earlier post.

Just been out in the workshop and used the s/edge on a number of machine tables, enough to show that it does appear to be reasonably straight as there is no consistent pattern or trend of gaps across all the tables. Rough and ready I know, but if there was consistently a gap(s) say in the middle of the s/edge or at one end or the other when swapped around end for end and tried on different tables then it would suggest a problem I guess.

So, probably not super accurate but ought to be more reliable than a 12" rule at least !

Held the plane up to the light with the s/edge and sure enough loads of light showing in lots of different places, particularly at the front end of the sole where the adjustable mouth is, and the overall effect looks pretty alarming.

Thought I would test it a different way though and placed the plane on it's side on the bench. Placed some 1" stock to run parallel to the sole of the plane and then placed the s/edge on the stock so that it was supported and pressed up against the plane sole.

Then broke out the feeler gauges and sure enough there is about a .0015" gap at the front end of the plane, but no discernable gaps of that magnitude elsewhere.

So I think Alf was right, that daylight can be seen through incredibly small gaps and the visual impression of that is much worse than the actual size of the problem when measured objectively.

Think I have now concluded that the plane is actually fine and within tolerance and will now concentrate on making some shavings rather than messing about worrying about the minutae of the sole :roll:

Apologies to LN and Tilgear for ever doubting them for a minute and thanks to all for the suggestions and offers of help, including Alf who was spot on as always :shock: :lol: and I think you are all correct in saying I was mad not to jump in the car and take up David's kind offer :sign3:

Back out into the workshop after a hot cup of tea, it's cold out there this morning !

Cheers, Paul.

 

[Lord Nibbo]

I was mad not to jump in the car and take up David's kind offer :sign3:

Back out into the workshop after a hot cup of tea, it's cold out there this morning !

Cheers, Paul.

We're debating having a barbie :lol: I expect it's pretty good down around Falmouth too (Trolling for Alf :lol: )

You should have taken DC's offer up and dropped her indoors off at Clovelly or Ilfracombe I'm sure she would have loved it

 

[engineer one]

even a reference engineers plate cannot guarantee that you see the bottom of your plane as flat.

realistically, the only way you can check is to mount the plane upside down in a cradle, where it won't move, and then use a dial test indicator
that is referenced at a couple of points along the length. that way you would see the differences at various points.

it is also true that when you are looking close up under an edge, there is a surprising amount of light showing through. it confuses many when first done. and even feeler gauges are only a guide, not a really accurate measure. remember their basic job is to allow you to set tappets on bl***y great bits of machinery, and being thin they are liable to some movement.

having been trained in using engineers scrapers etc it is a problem when you can't get engineers blue very easily any more, but even then you have a problem with the thickness of the coat you put on the surface.
one of the slower drying marking pens is my present method, but you have to know the reference surface is flat, and the only way to do that is use an indicator. although i guess there may well be some piece of laser equipment that someone will say is as accurate.

if you look at some of the ln pieces in magazines, they say that they finish them to a very high standard and test before shipping, so would wonder about storage if it is too off.

paul :wink:

 

[bugbear]

Is there any way to check the straightedge without a known perfect reference surface ?

Yes, but that involves have a "known perfect reference".

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... e=1&jump=0

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/DKX31

Once you have this, you simply wipe/smear a coating of engineer's blue:

http://www.toolfastdirect.co.uk/acatalo ... rking.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer%27s_blue

You now have a dead flat "dirty" reference. Gently place the rule edge on this. You may need to rub very gently. (only) The high regions of the rule will be marked with the blue (*)

BugBear

(*) of course, you could careful remove a little metal in these areas...

 

[Hokie]

My L-N 102 was not completely flat when I bought it, but I used said granite plate to flaten it. Now, some of my machinist buddies say there are more sophisticated centerless grinding techiniques developed for flat surfaces, but I prefer my at-home method whereas I am putting the tool under some stress so that any deflection of the tool will show up during surfacing. This way, the tool may not be flat when held up and measured, but flat while in use. I try not to get uptight about too flat so I doubt I'll ever be a gold card member of the Fettler's Society.

L-N is going to tell you it is ground to 0.0015", but isn't that per inch?

 

[engineer one]

the measurement of deflection or hollow or rise suggested by ln is not per inch, but allegedly across the whole surface of the plane.

as i have said before, in the old days one built racing engines from old bus crankcases, because they had been seasoned. BMW in the 80's started the trend away from old castings although even those were seasoned out in the rain and snow for some weeks. and they used to curn out over 1500 bhp per litre. :twisted:

cast iron in particular needs to move after casting to settle down properly which is why many mass produced planes are so far out of true. having no recent experience with cast bronze i cannot comment there, but assume that similar holds true. there must be post casting movement just because of the way metal moves once cool.

paul :wink:

 

[Philly]

Paul
I believe Lie-Nielsen (amongst others) treat their castings to a stress relieving process.
Cheers
Philly