Like Adam, tempted by an Apple...

[Alf]

Now I know this is like posting a thread asking "So, what about dado blades then?" or "Woodrat vs. Leigh?" but nevertheless I've decided to drop this stone in the tranquil waters of the forum in the hopes I can get a few sensible, and as un-biased as humanly possible, answers.

Well we live in hope. :roll: :lol:

So the Dell has gone back after a blazingly good letter to the UK fella in charge but in an eerie duplication of The Bandsaw Fiasco of 2000-and-something well-known to long term layabouts on this forum, they've pinched the shipping costs from the refund. ](*,) ***********. :evil:

Anyway, while we dispute over that, a young galoot's fancy turns to buying anything but a Dell and so I look about the place for an alternative. I look in PC World and see rows of screens running windows, 75% of them with bubbles and windows asking whether it should do this or that, and there's no anti-virus protection and all the other tedious demands Windoze throws at one. Frankly it was depressing. I turn the corner and see...

A Mac.

I blame Roger, 'cos instead of turning on my heel and walking away like a good PC user, I go closer and take a look. I fiddle a bit. I look at its stylish lines. I read it's got a decent chip in there at last :wink: I come home and start to read up on it. A lot. So, I have questions:

• The iMac mit the Intel core duo jobbie then - would one be effectively buying Version 1.0 of something, which everyone knows is a Bad Thing? Or are Apple so wonderful they don't suffer from this disease like the rest of us?
  
  Exactly how much of a pain in the posterior is it for a long-time Windoze user to get to grips with a Mac? (Possibly one for Andy)
  
  Similarly, how much of a pain is it to transfer data from a PC running XP to a Mac?
  
  Could an external hard drive be shared between them?
  
  Presumably Macs do actually need some AV software, despite some claims, but what about spyware? Do they really cut down on the amount of "do this and do that" requirements that Windoze seems to have? Will it "just work", or is that a load of old tosh?
  
  Touch of the Tonys here :wink: , but are Macs really worth that extra lettuce for what is apparently a lower spec machine than an equivalently priced PC?
  
  Is the standard 512 RAM okay, or would at least 1Gig make sense for photo editing?
  
  Additional "AppleCare" to take it up to 3 yrs - worth having? Is Apple's customer service any good at all?

Sorry, too many questions, but this'd be a big, and unfortunately expensive, step to take, and inexplicably I trust you guys... :wink:

Before you ask, no I don't play games - that was the thing that always stopped me looking at a Mac before, but I realised I've never loaded a game on this current machine so evidently despite all the evidence to the contrary, I've grown up. :shock: Nearly all my software is free downloads like Open Office and stuff, so that's not an issue either.

Thoughts, suggestions and so forth all welcomed, as long as you all play nicely... [-o<

Cheers, Alf

 

[aldel]

Oh Ali,

Don't do it !!
Buy a Mesh or Evesham PC. if you want a ready made one. At least those use standard parts.
Please promise me you won't go to PC World!!

Think of software availability.

Aldel

 

[Anonymous]

you can run a dual boot on them now so you could run XP as well as MAC OSx if you wished. although it does sound a bit buggy and if you wanna run XP, then erm, might as well buy a PC

but they are wife compatible with regards interior decor!

 

[mr]

• The iMac mit the Intel core duo jobbie then - would one be effectively buying Version 1.0 of something, which everyone knows is a Bad Thing? Or are Apple so wonderful they don't suffer from this disease like the rest of us?

• 
  Version 1 of something on which the jury is still out as far as Im aware. Apple have their problems same as the rest you just dont hear so much about them.
  

  Exactly how much of a pain in the posterior is it for a long-time Windoze user to get to grips with a Mac? (Possibly one for Andy)

  Shouldnt take long at all if youre not planning on getting down and dirty with the code that makes it all tick.
  

  Similarly, how much of a pain is it to transfer data from a PC running XP to a Mac?

  Potentially a pain it depends on what data you want to transfer. Images and music will transfer and work seamlessly, documents may not. Applications certainly wont
  

  Could an external hard drive be shared between them?

  The formatting is different and the drives spin at a different speed. Macs will read pc formatted drives but not vice versa last time I looked. Again you have data format compatibility issues as well.
  

  Presumably Macs do actually need some AV software, despite some claims, but what about spyware? Do they really cut down on the amount of "do this and do that" requirements that Windoze seems to have? Will it "just work", or is that a load of old tosh?

  As far as Im aware there hasnt been a mac virus that has survived in the wild. THough it ould be sensible to put virus protection in place whatever the platform. That said my pc has AVG & Adaware installed only and in many years I have never been afflicted with virii - sypware occasionally gets in.
  

  Touch of the Tonys here :wink: , but are Macs really worth that extra lettuce for what is apparently a lower spec machine than an equivalently priced PC?

  Not in my opinion. More expensive with less software available particularly open source, and less flexible without getting really involved in the innards, but then that generally suits their users.
  
  

  Is the standard 512 RAM okay, or would at least 1Gig make sense for photo editing?

  512 ok 1 gb better.
  

  Additional "AppleCare" to take it up to 3 yrs - worth having? Is Apple's customer service any good at all?

Sounds like a Dixons extended warranty to me but then I have no experience of it.

THey look nice and they tend to just work for the straigtforward uses they get. Theyre too expensive imho and too limiting in terms of software available. PCs dont have to be troublesome in fact most are not - Ive never had any problems but then theres always 1 thats a shocker. ITs case of looking at your requirements and weighing that up against the TCO
Mike[/quote]

 

[matt]

Oh Ali,

Don't do it !!
Buy a Mesh or Evesham PC. if you want a ready made one. At least those use standard parts.
Please promise me you won't go to PC World!!

Think of software availability.

Aldel

I don't have a problem with Macs, but then I don't have a problem with PCs either. I'm curious to own a Mac just to see, but hesitate at stepping outside what I know and what I know is directly compatible with my work setup.

Ditto the Mesh. I've had a Mesh for about 5 years, I directed my father-in-law to Mesh just before I purchased mine. I purchased a Mesh for my mother just before Xmas and directed my sister to Mesh about 3 weeks ago. So far so good. They're not perfect but they seem to be significantly better than many.

Ditto: Don't go to PC World.

 

[JFC]

Ive been a mac user for years and swear by them . They are easy to use and the only problems i've had is when trying to open some windows programs but thats easily got over .
If you buy a mac you should get their latest software in the deal , i think its OS Tiger now.
Ive been using a pc for the last few months because i had a mate staying that used one for work but i cant wait to get my mac set up again because they just look cool and save room !

 

[JimNoble]

• The iMac mit the Intel core duo jobbie then - would one be effectively buying Version 1.0 of something, which everyone knows is a Bad Thing? Or are Apple so wonderful they don't suffer from this disease like the rest of us?

• 
  
  Yes, it's version 1.0 for Apple, but the new Intel Macs are now based on what is pretty much a standard Intel PC platform - as others have pointed out you can even run Windows on it.
  
  

  Exactly how much of a pain in the posterior is it for a long-time Windoze user to get to grips with a Mac? (Possibly one for Andy)

  
  My Grandad is in his 80s, and managed to switch from Windows PC to Mac just fine. I get far fewer "support" calls now too :lol:
  
  There are differences in usage. Most of them are in the "Of course! Why doesn't Windows do it like that?" category though...
  
  

  Similarly, how much of a pain is it to transfer data from a PC running XP to a Mac?

  
  http://www.apple.com/switch/howto/
  
  

  Could an external hard drive be shared between them?

  
  Most external HDs are formatted for PC use, and Macs will read them just fine. You'll only be able to connect to one of them at a time though. Alternatively, connect to [either] one and "share" it with the other machine over a network connection.
  
  

  Presumably Macs do actually need some AV software, despite some claims, but what about spyware? Do they really cut down on the amount of "do this and do that" requirements that Windoze seems to have? Will it "just work", or is that a load of old tosh?

  
  I got a free one with ".mac" membership. Can't say it's ever actually been needed.
  
  

  Touch of the Tonys here :wink: , but are Macs really worth that extra lettuce for what is apparently a lower spec machine than an equivalently priced PC?

  
  Build quality tends to be better than the PC box shifters. There are usually a few features you won't find on a PC as well. Plus you get Mac OS X - worth the extra by itself IMHO.
  
  

  Is the standard 512 RAM okay, or would at least 1Gig make sense for photo editing?

  
  It'll work with 512Mb. Might start to chug if you try and do too much at once though. If you're throwing multi-megapixel images around frequently, 1Gb would probably be useful. Photo editing is more CPU intensive than memory though, so go for the quickest CPU available.
  
  

  Additional "AppleCare" to take it up to 3 yrs - worth having? Is Apple's customer service any good at all?

Worth having for your first machine, yes. You get free use of the technical support helpline for 90 days IIRC, but you're on your own after that without it.

Apple's CS is pretty good. I wouldn't touch PC World with a barge pole personally though. Buy from Apple direct (http://www.apple.com/ukstore), or John Lewis if you can.

Jim

 

[devonwoody]

My sister had a bust up with her new windows PC and the salesman bumped her over to a Apple/mac. None of her windows software was worth a dime on the apple and the cost of replacing 4 years of software is very painful.
I still think of Beta via VHS days.

 

[wizer]

• The iMac mit the Intel core duo jobbie then - would one be effectively buying Version 1.0 of something, which everyone knows is a Bad Thing? Or are Apple so wonderful they don't suffer from this disease like the rest of us?

• 
  
  I think that teething troubles are inevitable, but thats true of anything. Look at the first iPod, it looks terrible now.
  
  

  Exactly how much of a pain in the posterior is it for a long-time Windoze user to get to grips with a Mac? (Possibly one for Andy)

  
  IMHO I think you'll stuggle for quite a while. As a long time PC user I just find Mac's barmy. It just seems they have done things in a different way just to be different. I'm sure someone brighter like yourself will get used to it in a few months, but will there be things you will miss about a PC\Windows?
  
  

  Similarly, how much of a pain is it to transfer data from a PC running XP to a Mac?

  
  I don't think this is really an issue now days, allthough the filesystem is slightly different. Remember you will have to buy a whole new copy of office.
  
  

  Touch of the Tonys here :wink: , but are Macs really worth that extra lettuce for what is apparently a lower spec machine than an equivalently priced PC?

  
  I don't think it is worth it. I just dont see where that extra lettuce is going? Style?
  
  

  Is the standard 512 RAM okay, or would at least 1Gig make sense for photo editing?

  
  In PC terms I'd say 512 is not enough, I can't speak for macs.
  
  

  Additional "AppleCare" to take it up to 3 yrs - worth having? Is Apple's customer service any good at all?

Dunno about their customer service. Extended warranty is always a tough one. It depends how often you change your computer. I always reccomend it.


We have had this debate before. Macs are getting better all the time and users comments about them being 'easy to use' are probably true of those who just want a computer to 'work'. Personally, I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole. :wink: :twisted:

It's a shame you have had trouble with Dell. Sadly their customer service standards are dropping steeply. I think that their hardware is still good value. If you want a good rock solid PC then you'll have to pay for it. Look at HP Compaq who, imo, are the Toshiba of the PC market.

 

[dedee]

Alf,
I've worked with windows PCs in an office environment (ICL now Fujitsu) for as long as they have been around and therefore support on any issue was just down the corridor.
I had never bought a computer for home use until last August and as you know I chose the iMac. Why?
Well I class myself as a proficient and expert computer user (of applications) and I am not at all interested in how they work just how to use them. Hardware or software rebuilds scare the bejesus out of me. Therefore the thought of spending any amount of time with a call centre (at any cost) fills me with dread.
I wanted reliability, ease of use, trouble free (from viruses, see other threads) and I had space limitations too, ie I did not want a big box.

In the 8 months that I have been using it the operating system has not crashed, I have had no application failures, no viruses (that I am aware of). Interweb access is via a router/firewall by the way and is not normally switched off. I have not had to raise a support call and I am very pleased. I do not have any AV software, I rely on the router's firewall to stop people getting in and I am still not convinced that there are any MAc viruses about (ready with the fire extinguisher). There are malicious software programs that you would have to be nuts to download and run but then AV software would not pick these up anyway.

I did buy some useful manuals, MAC osx the Missing Manual and Appleworks the Missing Manual. These are written with "switchers" in mind and are far easier to use than online help files. I have also used the Apple Support Forums and a couple or MUGs (Mac User Groups) for further information.

I do not use any of the Microsoft for Mac applications. I use NeoOffice (open source and free) for word processing & spreadsheets and NVU (also opensource and free) for web publishing. File transfer to the my Zen webspace is via SurFTP (web based FTP).

I use the standard Safari web browser.

It would be wrong to suggest that there have not been any frustrations. The standard Mac/Safari set up does not seem to handle ASP (Active server pages) for example but I can honestly say this has not caused me any real grief.

I have not had any large amount of personal files to transfer but the odd MSword Doc has looked OK in both Appleworks (which can open and save is MSword formats) and NeoOffice.

I also only use the one button Apple mouse (too mean to buy a two button wheeled one) and even this is not the end of the world.

Do not but a Mac and expect an trouble transition but try to weigh up the problems of switching to a new environment against the reliability and vulnerability of a PC windows system - remember those support calls and blue screen crashes.

I do not play games nor want nor need the type of applications that are not available for Macs.

It is difficult if not impossible to get a discount on a Mac so I bought mine direct from Apple with 1gb upgrade, everything I had read on numerous forums suggested that the Apple Care was not needed. If you buy from John Lewis I think you get 3 years gurantee.

I have read that Macs and PCS can and do sit happily on a network but I've no idea about that.

I found getting used to the Mac easy, very easy.
I think it is money well spent but then I am not an engineer :wink:

If I can help further please fire away.


Andy

 

[dedee]

Oops forgot to mention.

If you have not done already have a look around here http://www.apple.com/macosx/

I do not use Mac Mail. With broadband what is the point of using computer based email applications? I only use GMAIL (PM your email if you would like an invite) and Yahoo mail.

Also the iMac does look very cool.

Andy

 

[Alf]

Remember you will have to buy a whole new copy of office.

'Cept I don't even have an old copy... :lol:

Thanks for your thoughts, folks; really very helpful. I absolutely promise not to buy from PC World - as if I would. [-( :lol: I do find myself drawn to the Mac; sucker for style perhaps? Ooo, it's tricky though. A bit like deciding whether to emigrate to a new country... But on the other hand I've moved further and further away from the standard Microsoft stuff like IE, OE and so forth, so the ties that bind simply aren't there any more. If I break out in Tiger's like Andy, you'll know what happened. :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[wizer]

I think for someone like yourself who just wants to 'use' a computer, then probably you will be fine with the mac. As long as you go into it aware that the world is still largely geared up for PC's and that it might be harder, on occasion, to get the mac to do the odd thing other PC users can do, then you'll be fine.

 

[ike]

If you want a good rock solid PC then you'll have to pay for it. Look at HP Compaq who, imo, are the Toshiba of the PC market.

I think that is the whole nub of it. Macs are stylish, I'm sure they work very well, but are also niche, trendy, and relatively expensive.

I went the laptop route recently and plumped for a Toshiba and it just does the job with no problems at all. Probably all the preloaded Toshiba software helps I dunno, but it has all worked flawlessly out of the box, including connecting itself to the wireless stuff!, Not one foul word uttered by yours truly! All at not much mre than half the price of a MAc.

Ike

 

[devonwoody]

I hate to mention it but my PC TIME computer (now gone bust) has never crashed in the four years and with assistance at times from the forum it runs perfectly.

 

[Anonymous]

Alf

No experience of long-term Mac use but I have three friends who own them and swear they are the best thing around (all Mac users seem to do this).

I suspect that much of the reason for Mac users swearing by their choice is down to:
a) Paying over-the-top for low performance hardware (yes Mac owners, this is true, like it or not)
b) Disliking/Hating Microsoft
c) The Mac is easy to use and stylish

I use PCs because I know them inside-out (built my first PC in 1989) and because of the availability of software in general - and my work supplies all Microsoft software FOC to academic staff (but no Mac software).

However, when my next work laptop renewal is due in about 18 months, I am thinking of asking for a Mac notebook to run alongside my PC notebook as I want to learn more about Macs.

At the end of the day, they are both just computers and will do what you want and the choice is one of personal preference and taste.

 

[Manny]

I suspect that much of the reason for Mac users swearing by their choice is down to:
a) Paying over-the-top for low performance hardware (yes Mac owners, this is true, like it or not)

A bit unfair Tony, I've used both macs and pc's for donkeys years (in print), since back in the days when a mac was the only choice if you wanted to work with graphics, which is why most of the printing industry use macs. In my experience macs have always performed better than pc's, I think you'll get the same response from most people who use both.

Alf, having used both I would never buy a pc but what I do find is that some of the useful woodworking stuff that is available on the net won't run on my mac (which is not an intel based mac) but I guess thats not a problem with the newest macs.

John

 

[devonwoody]

I couldn't bare the shame of joining the dirty mac brigade

 

[dedee]

Paying over the top I can kind of understand but low performance is harder for me to agree with.

Could comparison be made with Stanley vs LN vs Veritas vs Holtey planes.
I suspect one really needs to have one to appreciate quite how good they are. Or sash cramps vs K bodies :wink: :wink:

I have to remember that there are many people who do not know the ins and outs of the workings of a computer & therefore reliability and ease of use is worth paying a premium for.

Andy

 

[Mike B]

Alf

My other half went the Apple PowerBook route when buying a new machine (mainly 'coz she thought it looked "cute" !!) and after 2 yrs or so would definitely do so again.

After a 4-5 days of screaming abuse towards Apple (mainly caused by the lack of a right click menu), she calmed down a little and actually realised that it was easier and more enjoyable to use - Mac OSX is great and so is the build quality. To date, she has never had a crash, virus, or problem of any kind which alone has made the extra expense worthwhile as before she had at least one problem per week that I had to fix...

But she is definitely no computer wiz and uses her computer primarily for work - image analysis, reports, email, surfing the web etc and does not "tinker" with the code like some of us (if you want to do that then I would definitely stay with a PC as a Mac hides away a lot of the stuff that we "tinker" with)

The only software she bought was a copy of MS Office for Mac which has been perfectly compatible too. The only software niggle has been with Safari not being supported by her bank, but there is MS Explorer for Mac and a version of Firefox which which work perfectly. If you do get really stuck there is also a PC emulator which works quite well but is fairly pricey...

Depends really what you want to do with it - for instance newspapers, publishers, artists etc have used them for years but pretty much all the big companies like banks, insurance companies etc I have been to have been PC based.


Mike