Lie Nielsen, Chisel Handles

[David C]

Jacob,

I wish you would stop writing misleading drivel about things you know nothing of. (L-N steel).

These chisels are very good. The cryogenically treated A2 steel is good. The hardness is good. The ability to change handles is useful. The timber of the handles is excellent and can be struck with a hammer. The balance is good. The grinding is superb with wonderful delicate edges. The flatness from the factory is good. There is no European chisel which can touch them...............................

I use these chisels all the time.

David Charlesworth

 

[matthewwh]

Oooh lummy, here we go.

A2 is a die steel, not an edge steel, it must be ground at 30 deg plus in order to prevent the cohesion issues mentioned above and thus determines the unwieldy toblerone like profile and tip heaviness characteristic of the LN's. Furthermore A2 will not convert fully to pearlite on tempering - hence the need for triple tempering to convert more of the remaining martensite, it also suffers from primary carbide formation so it will hold a 'not quite fresh' edge for a long time encouraging lazy sharpening habits. In short it is the wrong stuff.

I also disagree with the assertion that socket chisels are well balanced for chopping, the higher centre of gravity of a tanged chisel provides a finer feel for vertical and the lower bevel angle achievable with carbon steels affords easier penetration and therefore greater control.

No truck with LN's grinding and flatness, which are both superb, but I was absolutely delighted when they finally reneiged and decided to offer them in O1.

For European competition I'd recommend a Narex 8116 over an A2 LN anyday, Ashley Iles are light years ahead and if Sorby took the trouble to get their backs right they would easily nobble the toblerones as well.

If the handles are falling off then they are not seating correctly in the socket, a pinch of silicon cabide and then screw the handle around in the socket - not unlike seating a valve - clean all the dust out and with a sharp tap they should adhere beautifully. Slapping the side of the chisel against a block of wood will encourage them to part again if necessary.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob,

I wish you would stop writing misleading drivel about things you know nothing of. (L-N steel).
....

What I do know is that LN chisels are complained about endlessly.
But they are obviously marvelous if you say so, and everybody else is wrong and should just stop complaining. :roll: It's their own fault if the handles drop off.

The ability to change handles is useful.

Is it? :lol: Seems you have to anyway, like it or not. :lol:

I agree with Matthew - of the few new chisels/gouges I've ever bought the Ashley or Ray Iles seem to be tops, totally superior to LN, cheaper, the handles don't drop of, they don't have crumbly edges and are locally made.
NB I'm not a dealer/representative nor have ever had even a free sample (from anybody ever, except Matthew's bottle of snake oil!). I must be doing something wrong.

 

[Jacob]

Other frequent complaints are about quality of finish and even quality of wood in the handles.

Just had a quick look around for price comparisons.
Looking at the alternatives, the prices, the complaints, then LN chisels seem to be an over-hyped, over-priced, rip-off.

 

[bugbear]

Jacob,

I wish you would stop writing misleading drivel about things you know nothing of. (L-N steel).
....

What I do know is that LN chisels are complained about endlessly.

Second hand knowledge Jacob?

I thought only that which occurred in YOUR workshop counted. You certainly don't listen to anybody else's positive opinions or reviews, deeming them deluded, corrupt or ignorant.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

What I do know is that LN chisels are complained about endlessly.
Second hand knowledge Jacob?

No, first hand knowledge - I read the complaints on an almost daily basis.

but DFTT :roll:

 

[Karl]

No, first hand knowledge - I read the complaints on an almost daily basis.

I remember a thread a while back where people complained about crumbling steel on their LN chisels (Alf had the same problem IIRC), but to say that it is a daily occurrence is surely an exaggeration.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I read the complaints on an almost daily basis.

You should get out more, Jacob, then maybe you wouldn't be such a grumpy old sod :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jacob]

I read the complaints on an almost daily basis.

You should get out more, Jacob, then maybe you wouldn't be such a grumpy old sod :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Yebbut it's p&&sing it down with rain at the mo. :x
I might pedal around the block later. :lol: I'll go and get the Guardian and a steak n onion pie.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I'll go and get the Guardian

Good idea. I'm sure they have a "Letters to the editor" page. You could try writing to them every day and give us poor souls a break. I'm sure the The Guardian readers would value your opinions........ :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Oooh lummy, here we go.

A2 is a die steel, not an edge steel, it must be ground at 30 deg plus in order to prevent the cohesion issues mentioned above and thus determines the unwieldy toblerone like profile and tip heaviness characteristic of the LN's. Furthermore A2 will not convert fully to pearlite on tempering - hence the need for triple tempering to convert more of the remaining martensite, it also suffers from primary carbide formation so it will hold a 'not quite fresh' edge for a long time encouraging lazy sharpening habits. In short it is the wrong stuff.

I also disagree with the assertion that socket chisels are well balanced for chopping, the higher centre of gravity of a tanged chisel provides a finer feel for vertical and the lower bevel angle achievable with carbon steels affords easier penetration and therefore greater control.

No truck with LN's grinding and flatness, which are both superb, but I was absolutely delighted when they finally reneiged and decided to offer them in O1.

For European competition I'd recommend a Narex 8116 over an A2 LN anyday, Ashley Iles are light years ahead and if Sorby took the trouble to get their backs right they would easily nobble the toblerones as well.

If the handles are falling off then they are not seating correctly in the socket, a pinch of silicon cabide and then screw the handle around in the socket - not unlike seating a valve - clean all the dust out and with a sharp tap they should adhere beautifully. Slapping the side of the chisel against a block of wood will encourage them to part again if necessary.

I have to agree with all that's been said about LN chisels...they (A2's) simply aren't as good as they're cracked up to be. A2 will crumble (as the sole of my LN block plane will adequately testify :evil: ) if the honed bevel is too shallow. I eventually found that 32 or 33deg was about right, but I know that MrC hones at 35deg. In a little side by side test I did for my own benefit, I was convinced that Mr Fujikawa's professional Orie Nomi's, (when compared against LN A2 chisels with a similar honed edge) held a much sharper edge and even when smacked into oak a dozen times with a big geno, there was no chipping at the edge.

...and I also agree with Paul's assessment of Jacob :lol: :lol: but feel sorry for Gaurdian readers - Rob

 

[Alf]

No, first hand knowledge - I read the complaints on an almost daily basis.

I remember a thread a while back where people complained about crumbling steel on their LN chisels (Alf had the same problem IIRC), but to say that it is a daily occurrence is surely an exaggeration.

Nope, never had that. Just use a higher angle - which complaining about it with A2 is like complaining that a pig has a curly tail. It's just how it is. But it is why I, like others, nagged about getting some made available in O1, because being able to use a finer bevel without crumbling is often preferable in a chisel. My only negative observation is that I didn't feel that there was quite the quality feel of finish in the recent O1 examples I bought, compared to the earlier manufactured A2 ones that I purchased first. If you hadn't got the comparison available, you'd probably look at me like I was mad and wonder what the devil I was on about.

The matter of balance that Matthew touches on is so much a case of personal preference as to be null and void in any discussion, in my view. I like 'em. But then I like tanged chisels too. Heck, I just like chisels.

 

[jimi43]

The A2 Veritas spokeshave blade I got for a fiver on Axminster's manager's special deals was perfect for the first few tries when it was sharp but since then has been very disappointing compared with 01 steel that I use all the time.

The irons that I make myself in the kiln are sharper and stay sharper longer...and just feel nice and easy to hone unlike the A2.

Old chisels from Sorby, Ward...even Marples that I pick up for 50p with old cast steel are better IMHO.

Ok they need regular touching up but they are just nicer. I was almost put off modern steels simply because of my experience of A2 and then I came upon the T10 that QS uses and if anything...that might even be better than 01....time will tell.

Companies like LN obviously listen to the market views otherwise they wouldn't make an apparent retrogressive step to 01....

To pay nigh on £50 for a chisel for me is nonsense...I could get 100 bootfair masterpieces for that...sharpen them all up...stick them in a row and use each one for 5 minutes for about 10 years before I ran out of sharp edges...but if anyone feels that the price is worth it...good on them! I can think of better things to spend my money one...and I hate to quote our dear friend Jacob but "like on wood!"

Jim

 

[woodbloke]

To pay nigh on £50 for a chisel for me is nonsense...I could get 100 bootfair masterpieces for that...sharpen them all up...stick them in a row and use each one for 5 minutes for about 10 years before I ran out of sharp edges...but if anyone feels that the price is worth it...good on them! I can think of better things to spend my money one...and I hate to quote our dear friend Jacob but "like on wood!"

Jim

Does there come a point though Jim, when you look at the stuff you've got (not you personally :wink:...the royal 'you' :wink: ) and think...'yup...I've got enough stuff, I don't need any more for what I do?' I'm rapidly approaching that point with hand tools where I've got planes under the bench that I've never, if rarely used. Granted they will get used at some point, but I tend :-" 8-[ to be a 'user' rather than a 'collector' F'rinstance, the Norris panel plane hasn't seen any action for years now, same as my compass plane. Both nice to have under the bench, but both don't get used much. If the tools are racked out on the 'Tool Wall' then they'll get used in the normal run of the mill making processes.
Probably why I don't understand the fascination with booties that others seem to like 'cos if I went round and delved into buckets of rust on a Sunday morning, most of it I'd classify as 'tat' and not worth the bother. If I saw stuff that I could actually use, that might be different...how many egg beaters do you really need? I have one which I've used occaisionally.
Not having a pop at anyone who enjoys these sorts of things...just not for me - Rob

 

[jimi43]

The difference is Rob..I have never been in a position to be able to afford to pay £50 for each chisel I use so I get loads at bootfairs for next to nothing...keep the ones I like for users and sell the rest for ten times what I pay for them again...at a bootfair on a stall. I have plenty of takers!

The money rendered allows me to splash out occasionally on judicious purchases on FleaBay for things I will not be likely to find at bootfairs or when people convince me to buy new saws! :mrgreen: :wink:

I think this process gives me the tools I need to work..the pleasure of researching old makers and designs....and the profit to buy more tools.

I am desperately trying to find a flaw in this plan but..... :wink:

Jimi

 

[woodbloke]

That sounds a plan to me Jim, which is the way you fund your woodie activities. All my tool purchases over the years have been funded through my articles in F&C and whilst it doesn't pay a great deal, it does allow me to get the stuff I want...plus the odd foray with SWIMBO's cc - Rob

 

[David C]

An excellent comment from ALF. A2 is A2, carbon steel is carbon steel and then there are those alloys.

These days I grind my chisels at 23 degrees or lower. Coarse stone at 30 degrees and polish at 32 degrees for paring. C 33 and P 35 for chopping. Penetration is excellent thank you and they are very sharp.

As for "lazy sharpening techniques" that's fighting talk as well as being transparent nonsense..........

David Charlesworth

 

[Jacob]

The only sensible comment so far has come from ALF.

Some of the other comments were sensible too.

.....These days I grind my chisels at 23 degrees or lower. Coarse stone at 30 degrees and polish at 32 degrees for paring. C 33 and P 35 for chopping. ...

If your finished edge is 32º you don't need to grind to 23º or lower. 30º will do it. NB Why 23º and not say 24 or 22?

 

[Scouse]

Probably why I don't understand the fascination with booties that others seem to like 'cos if I went round and delved into buckets of rust on a Sunday morning, most of it I'd classify as 'tat' and not worth the bother. If I saw stuff that I could actually use, that might be different...how many egg beaters do you really need? I have one which I've used occaisionally.
Not having a pop at anyone who enjoys these sorts of things...just not for me - Rob

Speaking as somebody with one or two boot sale egg beaters... :-" , I'll freely admit that there is an element of collection, especially Millers Falls, for some reason, I just love 'em. Dunno why, just do. Having said that I've not paid more than a couple of quid for one and I do get a great deal of satisfaction from renovating a seized old tool and putting it back to work. As a result, I do have more tools than might be found in an average workshop. I'm extremely fortunate that most of them are very high quality, but I look on these tools as workhorses and an investment in my business; the old stuff I just like for it's sentimental and aesthetic appeal.

As Jimi said, the research aspect also appeals greatly to me too, and finding a tool over 100 years old for pennies is simply irresistible.

I think it depends upon the direction from which you approach the acquisition of tools; as a wood worker who doesn't own, let alone use, a single electric tool, a few egg beaters, planes etc set up with different bits/blades saves a bit of time...

Well, that's my excuse... :wink: :mrgreen:

And with a nod to the OP, I use hairspray on my LNs.

 

[Mr Ed]

Jacob,

In the interests of science, how about you, Brian, Doug and I convene at my workshop for a chisel-off, followed by a few pints at the local? I suspect if we all bring our various chisels along we could compare the main options at one sitting. I have the A2 Lie-Nielsens, which I have been honing at 35 deg and chopping away in hardwoods without issue that I have noticed. I also have some Blue Spruce A2 paring chisels (bought on a whim and not used that much) which appear to be fine at 30 deg.

Assuming we don't forget the results of the research whilst in the pub, we can add some more comparative observation to the debate.

Ed